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Dear Griego,

I agree.

But being a saint is much better than being a bishop!

Sometimes I think the good folk in Rome should realize the circumstances under which our Church was forced to operate under the Soviets.

It was not business as usual, and the Soviets were very serious about destroying churches and martyring clergy and hierarchy.

I guess they forgot what it was like during the Roman times.

God bless,

Alex

griego,

Oh I don't think anyone takes it as a big deal. St. Thomas Aquinis does tell us when in doubt, make the more charitable assumption, but is assuming someone was a bishop really making a charitable assumption about them?

I think because in the past so many legends arose around saints, the Church nowadays tends to be very strict in asserting only what is proven. I also think the uncertainty around this reminds us of the confused, fragile and persecuted situation the Church was in that time and place. In that sense, it adds from the story rather than detracts.

I don't think anyone is taking a slap at him; only suggesting way he lived his life is more important than any titles he had.

K.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

Dear Kurt,

How right you are, Defender of the Christian social conscience!

And it is a fact that very few moral theologians ever get canonized - I think it is only St Alphonsus Liguori.

Alex

Alex -

I agree with you. What can you say to a community with active and dynamic faith but is latinized? Do you risk scandal and shcism?

JPII commands us to return to our traditions no matter what the cost. Easy to say when you have 1 billion Catholics in your particular Church. (I think JPII said that or was it Vatican II).

The thing that gets me is the hostile resistance from people within our Churches towards priests and communities that seek to be true Orthodox in union with the Bishop of Rome. We are called Russophiles which more fittingly means Russianizers than Rus'ianizers to the Polish Roman Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church of Galacia punditry that is in the majority of our Churches.

Also the confusion and willful lack of understanding of some RC's who just can't fathom a Catholic Church that is not Roman in ritual.

I just want to be who we are, which is a real good question. Better yet I want to continually learn about who we were and work to make a healthy return to our traditions without alienating the majority of the Church in the process. At the same time I think we have to be progressive and thoughtful, not just returning to traditions of the 1500 and 1600's without any regard for the progression of history from then until the present age. These are difficult questions that require serious answers, because every community is different and varied.

Ranting in Christ
Ality

Dear Ality,

Our former parish priest, Fr.Dr. Bohdan Lypsky, dedicated his life to Byzantine renewal for which efforts he was formally recognized by Rome.

But some of our dear and wonderful people branded him a "Russifier" all his life.

And this to a man who opposed the Polish government in Galicia and brought the Mysteries to Bilas and Danylyshyn, two Ukrainian nationalists sentenced to hang.

I just can't fathom it.

Alex

Dear Alex and Kurt,
Thank you for your responses. Yes, being declared a saint is much more important than being declared a bishop. The life of Blessed Leonid Feodorov is worthy of emulating whether or not it can be confirmed that he was ordained a bishop.

God bless you both,
griego catolico

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: griego catolico ]

Christ is Baptized!

Dear Katholikos Mor Ephrem,

Might I suggest that you like the highbacks because they remind you of the Syrian chasubles, which have a similar highback effect when viewed from the rear?

Just my two cents,

Edward Yong

p.s. : I love highbacks!!!

Alex: When you say that the Rev. Dr. Lypsky requested that non-liturgical hymns not be sung during communion but only liturgical ones, are you referring to our time-honored spiritual songs or some other more secular and maybe religious music that had been in use? Did he mean that he wished only liturgical stichera and scriptural verses during this time, as in the various communion hymns from the propers of the day or were our eucharistic hymns ok?

Even though some of our popular hymns may be Ukrainian and Rusyn interpretations of Polish RC religious songs from a different era, they have been "ours" for a so long that this is not noticed but the songs have become dear to people in our churches. They do express a pristine, simpler faith that can bring us back to the core of things in our day of theological and scientific advancement. That's probably a surprise, coming from me, but we all need the comfort and inspiration of our roots at times. There are also many hymns written by our own poet-priests which were intended to inspire devotion among the people during the liturgy and especially at the time of holy communion. I was just wondering which type of music Fr. Lipsky did not see fit for our liturgy. Thanks.

BTW, I have always found the Russian custom of singing only the Paschal communion verse "Receive the Body of Christ . . . ," while appropriate for this moment, to be overly repetitious and boring, when we have many other liturgical verses to chose from that are designated as "communion hymns." Does anyone know when and why this prescription became common place in the Russian recension? In our prostopinije, cantors have traditionally done a superb job of putting the various communion verses to beautiful, singable melodies for use during communion. This inspires the faithful through the enhanced use of scripture appropriate for the occasion. No one can say that the Bible is not an integral part of our popular liturgical expressions. Joe

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Joe ]

Holy Father Edward,

You're absolutely right!

With my interest in liturgical expressions, I have to contribute regarding the "high-back" vestments. To put in my personal "two cents," I agree with Anastasios. I find them hideous and uninspiring and, historically right or wrong, do equate them with the Russian Church. From experience, they are also uncomfortable to wear and give the feeling of being "cooped up" in some type of liturgical straight jacket. To me, they hearken of a medieval fashion one would expect to see in Dracula movies or perhaps among the French or English aristocracy of certain periods. I think they represent a period of extremely poor taste in liturgical design, such as the one that produced the fiddle-back chasubles once popular in the Roman Church. That's just my opinion, based on personal taste and experience. Please, no offense to those who like the high backs. Joe

Christ is Baptized!

Dear Jose,

You are quite right - the old mediaeval high-back copes are far easier on the eye than the later renaissance and baroque design low-back ones with the large tongue-like flap on the back.

If anyone can't imagine these high-back copes, simply look at any franco-flemish painting of the 13-1400s depicting angels or clergymen in choir dress. These copes were usually fastened with a large jewelled brooch-like fastener on the front. Breathtakingly beautiful, and these were concurrent with the full Mediaeval chasubles (not the hideous late Baroque fiddlebacks) which, interestingly enough, also sometimes had amices with stiff collars, giving the impression of a collar going around the neck of the Priest.

Someone once told me that these large jewelled fasteners were abolished and forbidden by some decree of the Congregation for Rites in the old days... *sigh*

I *SO* want to be a cantor for a Sarum rite Solemn Mass sometime- in the Sarum rite cantors were allowed to wear copes atop their usual coloured cassock and surplice!

Just my two cents!

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Christ is Baptized!

Dear Joe,


Odd, looking at old greek icons depicting priestly saints, they all seem to be wearing high-backs. Are my eyes deceiving me?

Help, now *I'm* confused too!

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Dear Friend in Christ Edward:

May the Lord truly bless you for your devotion to his church. Many of us for whom the church plays a central role in life take great interest in the particulars that have been used to express our faith through symbols, such as here, the style of vestments throughout different periods. It has been with many of us since our early youth. I guess that we all have our own individual sense of taste, which makes us unique in God's loving eyes. It also contributes to varying likes and dislikes. I like our familiar (Greek Catholic) close fitting phelons, you seem to prefer the starched, high back type. I don't know - it's all in what you're used to I suppose. All of my life, both lay and clerical, I have been surrounded by our Greek style of vestments, so I really could not imagine any other design fitting into the Ruthenian or Ukrainian churches. Besides, today the high backs are associated so much with the Russian usage, which is very sensitive for most of our people. I could not get away with high backs if I wanted to in most parishes I have served.

Also, to me, not having been used to the "high back" phelons, they are just very uncomfortable and cause me to feel "bound up" in their stiffness. Also, the two times that I have worn them, I kept trying to pull the front of the phelon down, not realizing that its length is much shorter than our style and there is nothing to pull down. Needless to say, I only made use of these out of necessity, when there was not another set available of the seasonal color in the place I was. It was Pentecost in a mission parish and the only set of green vestments was a donated Russian style. Actually, this particular set was not as extremely stiff as others I have seen, so I can only imagine what a starchier set would be like. Also, high backs seem to require special hangers to store them, due to the width of the head-opening. I wonder where churches get them.

As for older icons of priest-saints, I can't say that I recall any in high back style, but you could be right. I would imagine that the portrayal depends on the particular iconographer and his/her interpretation of the vestments. Icons are not always, 100 per cent of the time, historically accurate. I will check some of my icons and see if I can notice the style. My belief is that the high back style is a later invention and that the close fitting Greek style would have been first, which has been stated by another poster also. But, on the other hand, someone said that the monks on Mt. Athos adopted the high back style from Russia, so maybe this could be the reference you are noticing.

BTW, thank you for being gracious and if you are so inclined to ask a blessing, BlaHoslovi Otche is good for me. I enjoy these discussions when time permits. They help me keep my interests fresh. It's like being in seminary all over again or chatting with some good priest-friends. Some topics are also thought-provoking and good homiletic preparation. God bless you always. Joe

Christ is Baptized!

Dear all,

A very happy Feast of the Leave-taking of the Theophany of The Lord!

A picture of a mediaeval Gothic cope of the style I mentioned may be found at:

http://www.europart.it/liturgia/index.htm

Blagoslovi, Otche!

Dear Fr Joseph,

Today the high backs are associated so much with the Russian usage, which is very sensitive for most of our people. I could not get away with high backs if I wanted to in most parishes I have served.

Good point - pastoral sensitivity! I have to say that since I'm Russian Catholic, following the Old Rite, I'm naturally a fan of the highbacks!

Also, high backs seem to require special hangers to store them, due to the width of the head-opening. I wonder where churches get them.

I shall ask the clergy of the Orthodox cathedral I attend - that's a fascinating question!

Kissing your right hand, I remain,

Yours in Domino,

Edward

Bless me a sinner, Father Joe!

I could not agree more with you and so do the many Ukrainian Catholic parishes which use hymns such as "Plyvy Svitamy."

For some reason, Fr. Lypsky did not like that song and said it was "non-liturgical."

Other "non-liturgical" hymns that were a "no-no" included "O spomahay nas Divo Mariye" and some others.

These songs are truly dear to our people and were popularized at a time when the RC devotions to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception were very attractive not only to Greek Catholics but to Orthodox as well.

Fr. Isidor Dolnitsky then took it upon himself to create liturgical services (some would say "oddities") including Akathists to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Conception, Molebens and one booklet I have even has the Litany of the Virgin Mary translated into Old Slavonic!

Lines should be drawn, to be sure, and as I am no liturgist, I will leave it to yourself and others to draw them - and also to the people of the parishes who will do as they please notwithstanding!

Reverencing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex