www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Celts moving East

I notice from time to time dearly beloved Celts popping up on the Forum. Being of Irish extraction and on my way to becoming Melkite, I'm interested in finding out how many Celts we have out there and learning more about how they have found their way East.

I've touched upon my own move in the few posts I have posted in the past but I will give a brief synopsis. I was born and raised Roman Catholic in the 1950's and early 60's. As I entered my teen years, in the mid and late 60's I rebelled against the faith and finally left. I probably could have been considered a Catholic fundamentalist in how I practiced my faith. But the upheavals in the Church in the 60's undermined my simple faith and I lost my faith in the Faith in the process.

I experimented some with eastern religions and some in occultism but never found any real fulfillment in them. Eventually I came back into Christianity through the charismatic movement and spent 17 years in various Protestant churches and sometimes flirting again with Catholicism but on my understanding of it.

About 1978 I discovered the Church Fathers and started studying Church history. It was about another 10 years before I finally returned to the Catholic Church, though I did consider Orthodoxy as a possibility.

Upon my return to the Church, I tended toward the Traditionalist side and even got involved with some movements that considered the Pope to be in heresy while not denying him to be the Pope. I also became involved with the Feeneyite movement that believed in a strict view of "outside the church there is no salvation."

I was at war within myself. One side (I like to say my true Irish side) just couldn't accept the negativity of these views and the negative view of the Church. The other side (must be the Dutch and English Protestant I got on my mother's side revelled in the idea that I was with the right side and boy were we going to be vindicated one day.

I was attending the Latin Mass almost exclusively at this time but it wasn't until 1:30 in the afternoon and it pretty well shot Sundays for anything else. My two boys were getting restless so I tried to find an alternative to keep at least some Sundays open to do other things. I couldn't bring myself to go back to a typical Roman parish, mostly because the music was so bad that it turned my stomach or even the parish we have been attending, the priest though orthodox in doctrine, was becoming infected with some strange practices after attending various priestly and liturgical seminars.

What was one to do? I know, I'll attend some of the Eastern Catholic churches in Rochester. I had three choices. Two Ukrainian (one new calendar and one old calendar) and a small Melkite church. I started out with the Ukrainian churches and enjoyed them tremendously but I was still restless. Finally I went to the Melkite church. I had been there a few times at their old location about 7 years prior but at the time I couldn't connect. This time a whole different ball of wax. I loved the liturgy, the people were so friendly and open and there were even fellow Irish there.

I've been there almost two years now. As I mentioned to Irish Melkite (thanks for telling me about yourself, I enjoyed your post)in some ways it was like getting back to my true Irish roots and the beliefs of my forefathers before they were forced to give up their liturgy and practices by the English subjection of Ireland.
I'm waiting for my priest to return from a priest's conference and vacation to begin the formal process of changing churches officially. I know that I could continue to just attend but I cannot continue to live in two churches.

Many family and friends cannot understand why I want to formally change and it is hard to put into words. Part of it, such as the study of the theology and teaching of the Eastern church, is objective. But part of it is also subjective, all I can say is that the theology, liturgy and spirituality resonate in my soul in a way it never did as a Roman Catholic. It has also led to a broadening of my vision so I can see a much bigger picture than I was able to before. The boys are active in a way they never were before.
The boys and I serve at the altar, and they never had any wish to before even after being asked.

Well this is getting a little long so I'll wind this up. I'm looking forward to hearing from other Celts out there and how they ended up moving East.

Moladh duit, a Chr�ost,
(Praise to you, O Christ)

Terry

Well I must add, that not only is Terry's sons active, but he is as well.

Not only does Terry also serve at the altar, along with his sons and myself, but he also chants the Epistle very well!!


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Welcome home Terry.
Just met the priest from Rodchester, very nice guy.
Had a great celebration with the Melkites last week.
Stephanos I

Your tale sounds much like my own, except when I returned to the Church in 1979 it was in direct response to the witness of John Paul II and I have never been tempted by schismatics nor by Feeneyism. I also didn't live in Rochester, which is notorious among American dioceses for its heterodoxy, so that probably helped me not to overreact.
After returning to the Church I was fascinated by its universality and attended from time to time various other rites than the Roman: Melkite, Ruthenian, Ethiopian, Coptic, and Maronite. I also regularily attended the indult
Latin Mass. I always prefered the earlier forms of Christian art to the later, post-medieval styles [excepting Blessed Fra Angelico and a few other masters] and grew to love icons. I had always done art and started incorporating iconic styles into my art. I even attempted a few icons on my own but never completed one because of the frustration I always encountered. Nor could I afford any of the classes I heard about. Then a year and a half ago a friend of mine invited me to attend a class he was going to teach and offered me very favorable terms. It was a great week, held at a Romanian Catholic parish, and I attended the liturgy daily. By the end of the week I had a completed icon and a deep love of the Byzantine liturgy. I haven't turned back since and recently joined a Ruthenian parish, though we also have close ties with a local Romanian parish [our children attend their Montessori religious education classes]. I too find an affinity with my Celtic soul in the mysticism and more intuitive approach of the East, though unlike too many on this forum I also have a deep love for the West, at least in its more traditional aspects [Benedictinism, Franciscanism, certain devotional and doctrinal developments].
Anyway, always glad to meet other Byzantne Celts [my own heritage is more Scots and Ulster Presbyterian, with yet more Calvinists on the other, English side].

Christ is in our midst!


Dear brother Celt Turlough,


My story has been told before on this forum, so I will not bore you with the details. I will just tell you I am Antiochian Orthodox. You, David and I are neighbors, I live not far from you really. Needless to say I feel as you do, I have never felt so connected to the original faith of the ancient Celtic church. My family and I are also more involved in our parish than we ever were in the Roman church. It is a pleasure to meet a fellow irishman who is at home in the east.


Bail O Dia Ort!

Slainte chugat!

Michael

Hello to all,

Thanks for the responses. I have a theory that many of Celtic descent find a home in the East because of the mystical mindset of the Celts.

Daniel, it's interesting how you mentioned the subject of art. For years I have had a love for icons and have found much of modern Catholic art to be lacking and way too sentimental. I better watch it or I will get on a tear about the effeminate Christ of much Catholic art. Have you done much study in the old Celtic faith at all?

Michael, can you tell me where I can find your story in the posts. I may have seen it in the past but I would like to go back and read it again if I haven't already. Are you studying the Irish language. I'm attending a class here in Rochester.

Thanks for the kind words David, though sometimes I think I'm doing more caterwauling than chanting.

Go mbeanna� Dia daoibh,

Terry

Dear Turlough,

It was an Irish Melkite (no, not Neil here - someone who actually likes me ) who brought me into a deeper appreciation of my Eastern Christian spiritual heritage back in university.

When Fr. Serge Keleher lived in Toronto, he assisted me during my doctoral studies and introduced me to a number of subjects that I had, until then, only had a vague idea about.

My interest in the Celtic Church and Rite deepened as well - I've given two university lectures on Celtic Christianity and continue to study it.

There is a site that has an English translation of the Celtic liturgy, Office and the Rule of the Celi De, the monastic Friends of God - Celticchristianity.org. I'm NOT endorsing that group - only their work.

Fr. Geoffrey O'Riada used to have a Celtic Orthodox site with all sorts of information on it - I don't know if it is still around.

There are various Celtic Christian groups in North America, of course non-canonical, everything from the above group to others who have declared John Duns Scotus of the ninth century (not Bl. John Scotus Eriugena) and Morgan of Wales as saints. Morgan of Wales is also known to history as Pelagius.

Although he is named for the heresy of Pelgianism, there are those who argue he is not its true founder and that Pelagius is closer to the Cappadocian Fathers which caused the conflict with Augustine etc.

The Celtic spiritual traditions borrow heavily from the East - and in the Litany of Irish Saints there is mention made of the "Seven Coptic Monks" buried in Eire.

I visited the Holy Isle of Lerins where St Patrick was trained as a monk off the coast of Cannes in France. The island, that one may encircle on foot in about half an hour, has seven smaller monastic foundations, four of which are in ruins, with the main monastery, also in ruins, facing the Mediterranean.

Eastern monasticism from the Coptic Thebaid flourished here and this is where many an Irish monk learned about the Eastern Church's monastic experience.

The Celtic Rite, for example, is the only Western Rite where prostrations are done in the Eastern style.

The Celi De also practiced the Jesus Prayer, using prayer ropes of 150 and 33 knots.

They practiced 100 prostrations every second verse of Psalm 118/119 and continuing on until 100 prostrations were completed (the "Cross Vigil").

They performed a very Eastern "Shrine of Piety" - facing the four directions with arms outstretched reciting the Our Father three times in each direction.

They followed the Rule of St Pachomius in reciting the Psalms in groups of 12 - St Maelruain organized his Celtic Psalter in this way, in 12 groups of 12 and 13 psalms, beginning each group with an Our Father.

This organization of the Psalms later led to the development of the Psalter of Our Lady, the Rosary where each decade (Ten Hail Mary's represent a mystical Psalter) is headed with a Paternoster.

We know the Irish especially were a hardy race whose missionaries travelled in their "birinns" to parts unknown.

Christopher Columbus travelled to Ireland before his voyages to review the log-books of St Brendan the Navigator.

We know that Celtic missionaries travelled to Kyiv to visit St Olha to convert her to Celtic Christianity.

In fact, Ukrainian culture shares much with Celtic culture. The Celtic Cross is also an historic cross of the Kyivan Church of Ukraine and I wear one with Slavonic lettering around my neck right now.

The Cross on the grave of our national bard, Taras Shevchenko is a Celtic Cross.

As we know, the Celtic peoples began in the Carpathian mountains where the La Tene and Hallstadt cultures intermingled for the first time.

Alexander Carmichael's collections of Celtic prayers and poetry is an excellent resource. And I particularly like the novels of Nigel Tranter on Celtic history - his Columba, Margaret the Queen, David the Prince, Macbeth the King and even his trilogy on Robert the Bruce - these contain a wealth of information on the early Celtic Church.

I corresponded with Mr. Tranter and, for his 90th birthday, had my wife, who is a planner, name a street in Toronto after him.

After he died a few years back, I had a priest say Mass for him according the Lorrha-Stowe Liturgy.

The Celts also had the tradition of frequently saying the verse: O God come to my assistance, O Lord make haste to help me! They said this frequently, like the East says the Jesus Prayer and said this prayer after each Psalm and Our Father as well.

Working at the legislature, I developed three heritage laws for our Celtic ancestry - Tartan Day (April 6), an official provincial territorial Tartan and St Patrick's day as "Irish Heritage Day in Ontario."

When Robert the Bruce made his Declaration of Ardbroath, that document declared that the Scots came from Scythia in what is today Ukraine.

The document affirms that "Scottia" and "Scythia" are a play on the same basic name.

And this is why, it states, that St Andrew is the patron of Scotland as well as for Scythia.

Alex

Christ is in our midst!


Brothers Turlough and Alex, great posts!


Alex, that was a wonderful bit of Celtic history, I had heard alot of it before, but not all together. Great work, I am impressed! It just goes with what I have been telling other Celts (Most of whom think I'm nuts) that the Celtic church and the church of Kiev have so much in common and why.

Turlough, I agree with your thoughts as well, the Celts have always been very mystical folk, a perfect match for eastern spirituality. You can find the links to my past posts bu clicking on my name and then view recent posts. My story is under changing rites becomming byzantine catholic. The only gaelic I have learned I have read on line. Would love to be taking a course as you are.

Thank again you two,

Dia duit!

Michael

Dear Michael,

Yes, very good point! (Not on my post being excellent, the other point . . . ).

I'm just wondering out loud about whether the Irish immigrants to the Ukrainian Church are here because of any mystical connection with their Celtic ancestry - or because of a spirituality "famine" of sorts they experience in the Novus Ordo rite of the Western Church.

My friend, who is a Ukie priest, has a lot of Irish Ukrainians and they are mostly traditional Tridentinists who prefer the Byzantine Church.

What do you think is the Irish attraction to our Eastern Church and why they take to it like a snake to a woodpile sometimes?

Alex

Dear brother Alex,


Again I say, you have a wonderful insight into why things are the way things are. Speaking only for myself, and I was aware of my Celtic heritage throughout my discernment process, the thing that drew me east was the sense of things being less scholastic and more mystical. I read about the early Celtic church and wondered what things were like back then. How did they pray? How did they worship? What things kept them who they were? Had anything changed since the synod of Whitby to keep me from praying the way they did. Where they eastern or western in thought? If there was a change, what caused it? How were things then in relation to the Pope? In the end I reached the conclusion that I did by reading and re-reading all I could. Do some Irishman join the eastern churches because they are less liberal and more traditional? You bet! Have I met some who have done that? I sure have. If I remember correctly, all I met were fine members of their new parishes weather Orthodox or Catholic. I feel more at home somehow now than ever, and I know I am with the faith of our Fathers among the Saints, Aidan, Padraigh, Hilda, Brendan and Brigid included.

Bail O Dia Ort,
Michael

Dear Michael,

You should get in touch with Fr Serge Keleher in Dublin.

His Eastern Church is named for St Kevin of Glendalough (a huge Byzantine icon of him there!)

He has published the Divine LIturgy in BOTH Ukrainian and Gaelic - it is celebrated as such there as well. And he has published a gorgeous icon of St Patrick and of the Ukrainian Hieromartyr Bl. Nicholas Charnetsky who visited Ireland for a Eucharistic Congress and stayed with the Redemptoristines while in Dublin.

I think we may all undertake some Celtic practices in private such as the Shrine of Piety and the Cross Vigil.

The Celi De monks prayed the entire Psalter, in addition to the Divine Office, daily, and if they didn't finish, they said the Beatitudes 12 times.

They prayed the Beatitudes and the Magnificat regularly following each canonical Hour (and after prayers at meals).

Some of the practices condemned at the Synod of Whitby came as a surprise even to St Hilda who allowed the Synod to be held at her monastery.

St Dunchadh of Iona led the Celtic party. It would appear that the Celts took their Easter Communion on St Thomas Sunday, and not on Easter Sunday - believing one must give some more time in terms of preparedness.

There was the Celtic tonsure that upset the Romans and that matter of the paschal date .

The Celtic missionaries were sometimes called "Saint" even before their deaths. And Celtic monks could be married - the surname "MacNab" for example means "Son of the Abbot."

The Celtic Christians "sained" many things from the pagan Celtic ancestry. The Celtic American Society now marks November 1st as "Celtic New Year's Day" as the beginning of Samhain (or "Sowan").

St Brigid's Day is the beginning of Imbolc with Beltaine or May Day the beginning of spring, Lugnasadh the beginning of autumn.

We put up wreaths over chimneys and doors at Christmastime because the Celts believed these things to have great spiritual power as they remained green in winter. And so evil spirits couldn't come in through chimneys and doorways with wreaths on them.

We say "Bless you" when someone sneezes because the Celts believed that an evil spirit can enter us through our mouth or nostrils at that unguarded moment (we were supposed to pray constantly) and so we pray "Bless you" to keep any lurking evil spirit at bay.

The mistletoe was really worshipped by the Druids who wore liturgical gloves to retrieve it from the tops of oak trees.

We hug and kiss under the mistletoe by way of a Celtic tradition that said that the object was so holy that one must confirm that one was at peace and in love with everyone in its presence - otherwise desecration of the sacred mistletoe would occur.

To this day, the ministers at Yorkminster put on liturgical gloves and bring in a bundle of mistle toe at Christmas-time which is placed on a side altar.

St Ninian of Whithorn began the practice of even building Celtic churches in the middle of stone circles and in sacred groves of trees.

St Margaret of Scotland, a Roman Christian, was horrified at such things and believe the Celts to have Christianized pagan traditions associated with sun-worship - the haloed Cross is one example, although St Ninian seems to have developed it from the "Chi-Rho" symbol. There was also the Eucharistic interpretation of it where a round mill-stone was placed on top of a large Cross.

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Fantastic!!!!!!!

Thanks this is great!

Michael

Dear Michael,

Actually, it is a shame that there is no Western Particular Celtic Churches today. Of course, the Church of Scotland was called the "Columban Church" after St Colum mac Felim O'Neill (Nine-Hostager, correct?).

St Colum or Columba as the later RC's called him, got into an argument, as you know, in Ireland over the rights to a book of Psalms. The Abbot told him he violated "copyright" .

Colum asked how the Word of God could have "copyright" or words to that effect.

Soon two armies formed to fight over this matter and the army on the side of St Colum placed the psalter that was causing so much trouble on a pole as a war-flag.

About three thousand men died in the subsequent battle and St Colum was banished from Ireland - and travelled to Scotland to Christianize that country that had sent St Patrick to Christianize Ireland earlier.

Colum chose Iona for his base and when asked why that island he replied, "Because I can't see Ireland from it and will feel the temptation to return to Holy Eire less . . ."

At the battle of the Bannockburn in Scotland, Colum's Psalter, called the "Breck-Bennock", was brought out on a pole as Robert the Bruce's soldiers knelt before it as their standard and prayed the Our Father.

Feisty bunch, those Celts!

Alex

Alex, maybe you can help me. I am a direct descendant of Niall of the Nine Hostages. Was he related to St. Columba? If so, then I am too!

I had heard that Scotland was named after Scota, the mother of the first four kings of Ireland, who were all sons of King Milesius of Spain.

I've also heard that part of the reason some Irish are so dark-headed and dark-eyed is because some of the Spanish men from the Armada destroyed at the Isle of Wight sailed north and around of Scotland, and crashed in Ireland. (I also heard that some crashed in Scotland, too, but that the Scots ate them. Apparently the Irish were a little more accomodating ).

Logos Teen

Well, if he was a direct descendant of Niall, like the websites say, I guess I am related to him.

Logos Teen