www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Celts moving East

Brothers,

This is a great way to learn for me, keep this great talk up!!!!!!!!!

Michael

Logos Teen

The story of survivors from the Spanish Armada leaving numerous descendants in Ireland is pretty much a myth. The Black haired, brown eyed Irish are actually remnants of the Bronze Age Pre Celtic peoples who once inhabited Ireland. Their descendants can also be found in Cornwall and South Wales.

Alex

You forgot to mention that St Columba saw the Loch Ness Monster in 565 AD, then again, St Brendan the Navigator also saw some pretty strange things.

Dear Lawrence,

That is a myth, but it is a "fun myth" when one refers to the "Black Irish."

Our new Irish Premier has dark hair and is jokingly called "Black Irishman."

Yes, St Columba did have an encounter with the notorious and vicious "Water Horse" that some say was the Loch Ness Monster.

Anyone who is interested in a very readable (and affordable) novel about the life and adventures of St Columba of Iona - I heartily recommend Nigel Tranter's "Columba" - I read it once a year each summer!

His "Druid Sacrifice" is excellent too as it is about the mother of the founder of Angela's city of Glasgow - St Kentigern Mungo.

His "Margaret the Queen" is about St Margaret and the beginning of the end of the Celtic Rite in Britain, but it does highlight certain aspects of Celtic Christianity.

Alex

Dear Friends,

I've picked up info here and there about Celts in other places in Europe.

There are actually seven, not six Celtic nations: Ireland, Isle of Man, Wales, Cornwall, Highland Scotland, Britanny and Galizia in Spain.

In fact, at the time of Macbeth the King, the upper half of the Iberian peninsula was called "Celtiberia" and Macbeth could converse with them in an understandable way.

Anything with the addition of "wal" meaning "wild" refers to Celtic identity or ancestry.

Thus, Wales and Cornwall, but also Wallonia in Belgium, Wallachia in Romania (St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv was a Wallachian) and the walnuts which were a Celtic delicacy.

Of course, "Wallace" too!

The city of Sevastopil was originally built by Celts.

Alex

Alex,

Methinks you have gotten too taken up in the romanticism and myth of we Celts. Even we don't believe all our own legends - but we try to not let others be aware of that.

Despite the Celtic festivals held there (and damn near anywhere else in the world that they'll let us dance, sing, talk, fiddle, or play our pipes),
Galizia is not and cannot be accurately described as a Celtic nation. Certainly not any more than any of the myriad other kingdoms (European and otherwise) thru which we Celts passed, pillaged, plundered, or (in our later, more civil, or at least less barbaric days) prosletyized, and, in some instances, and for some periods, settled.

The other six which you named are the only lands into which the Celts settlement was of such permanence to justify their designation as Celtic and Gaelic-speaking. And, you short-change Scotland by delimiting the label of "Celtic" to the Highlands. Despite the Sassanach influence, there always was and continues to be a strong Celtic presence and influence throughout the Lowlands.

Quite honestly, despite a thorough search of the web and my fairly extensive library on Celtic, Scots, Irish, etc. history, the only reference I can find to this is in your own on-line article.
The Breath of the Spirit from the North: Celts in Kyiv [unicorne.org]

'strangers' or 'foreigners' is the consistently and routinely accepted etymology of 'wal' in place-names and other usages associated with the Celts.

"Although Celtic-speaking peoples were living in Britain before the arrival of the invaders from Friesland and Jutland whose languages would eventually develop into English, it was the Celts and not the invaders who came to be called “strangers” in English. Our words for the descendants of one of the Celtish peoples, Welsh, and for their homeland, Wales, come from the Old English word wealh, meaning “foreigner, stranger, Celt.” Its plural wealas is the direct ancestor of Wales, literally “foreigners.” The Old English adjective derived from wealh, w�lisc or welisc, is the source of our Welsh. The Germanic form for the root from which wealh descended was
*walh–, “foreign.”"
American Heritage Dictionary [bartleby.com]

"The name "Cornwall" comes from Cornovii, meaning hill dwellers, and Waelas, meaning strangers"
Cornwall [cornwall-calling.co.uk]

"Wales - "land of the foreigners", from the Germanic 'welsche' the term used by Anglo-Saxon invaders of the Britsh Isles for the native Celts they encountered. The Welsh native toponym "Cymraig" meant "land of the people". Several areas in Europe were named by the ancient Germans in the same way, the term used only for places inhabited by poeples of Celtic or Latin descent, including "Wallonia" in Belgium, "Valais" (in Switzerland), and the archaic "Welschenland" a term for Italy."
Sub-National Place-Name Etymologies [nationmaster.com]

and

"Wallachia - "land of the foreigners"
Sub-National Place-Name Etymologies [nationmaster.com]

"We also have attested once in Old English the compound walhhnutu in a document from around 1050; its next recording appears in 1358 as walnottes. This eventually became walnut in Modern English, which is thus literally the “foreign nut.” The nut was “foreign” because it was native to Roman Gaul and Italy."
American Heritage Dictionary [bartleby.com]

"WALLACE - Name Meaning & Origin
Last Name Meaning & Related Resources for the Surname WALLACE

Definition: A Scottish form of WALLIS, from the Old French 'le waleis," meaning "foreigner or stranger." Often used to denote native Welsh and Bretons.

Surname Origin: Scottish, English, Welsh

Alternate Surname Spellings: WALLIS, WALLISH, WELSH, WALSH, WALES "
Surname Origins [genealogy.about.com]
Alex, anything I have ever read, and every site on-line dealing with the history of Sevastopil, credits Catherine the Great. If you can point to a source crediting us Celts, we'll gladly accept the kudos.

Many years,

Neil

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
For those that are interested in where the Celtic Liturgy orginated, look up information of the Gallican Rite of the Roman Church. Even though this rite is based in Lyon, France. It was the transmitter of the Celtic Rites to Ireland, Britain, and Scotland. This is my rearly shown Scottish side showing, don't look under the kilt .

Poosh baShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Dear Neil (Nine-Hostager),

Thank you for such a copious and comprehensive post! The references you cite will come in handy for my next presentation on the Celts in the spring!

Yes, "wild" or "stranger" - that was debated at the last conference I attended.

Of course, those words meant different things way back when and there seems to be agreement that both referred to the fact that the Celts moved around quite a bit and were never in one spot too long, as you also suggest.

"Wild" meant simply "not rooted" in one spot and "stranger" also suggested something similar.

The walnuts were popular with Celts, nonetheless, but I didn't pay too much attention to sources for that - some think I'm already nuts!

The Celts were remarkably all over Europe and certainly Lowland Scotland has strong Celtic influences, probably from the Brythonic Celts.

As for Celtiberia, Nigel Tranter did much research into that area for his novel, "Macbeth the King." He received several Celtic history awards for his work and he once sent me a bibliography which I could have possibly stored somewhere. The language of Galiz is studied avidly in Spain and if they are not "Celtic" then someone should perhaps write to them and tell them to stop considering themselves as such - Celtic conferences usually do number them among the Celtic nations, however one may define them today.

There was the fact of the wandering of nations and cultural criss-crossing over Europe - which resulted in such seeming abnormalities as the Basque linguistic structure having similarities with Ukrainian etc.

I'm just breaking into this particular area (when I'm bored with Eastern Church issues and Slavic concerns ).

(And, yes, I know a reference for the Sevastopil matter - but it'll have to wait when I return to university. The last conference also referenced it.)

Anyway, thank you for the copious notes and perspectives that I'll be sure and put to good use.

Happy All Saints of Ireland Day!

Alex

Dear Alex,

You definitely are a wealth of information. I'm amazed at the abundance of facts you have concerning the Celts. Of course in the posts talking about Celtic nations, I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Galatians in Asia Minor during the time of St. Paul.

I'm familiar with Celticchristianity.org and have enjoyed their site many times. I've also enjoyed Orthodoxireland.com as well.

I appreciated your mention of Pelagius. I have read some of his works including his Commentary on Romans. To be honest I don't see what the big deal was, except that he teed Augustine off. I find him to be very Eastern in orientation, though I would agree that he may have overemphasized man's ability to live the Christian life, though he didn't deny that a man could do it without grace.

I approach this next area with some hesitation. The area that I was raised in has a good size population of Highland Scots, one of whom was a former teach of mine. He has taught me much and is versed in the old ways which were handed down through the family for generations. Part of that heritage was spiritual. Celtic Christianity may not be quite as dead as many believe. I know of your interest and love of things Celtic. I had a talk with my teacher last night and asked if he minded that I passed on his e-mail address to you. He said that he had no problem with this and would be pleased to talk with you. If you are interested please send me a private post and I will pass on his e-mail address. He and one of his grandsons are accomplished workers in traditional Celtic art as well. My teacher in wood carving and his grandson has worked in wood but has also began stone carving as well. Unfortunately I don't have that website handy at the moment.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Terry

Dear Terry,

I would love to speak with your teacher!

I've moved my e-mail address and I'll update in a minute to enable private messaging.

Yes, the Galatians were Celts in fact, as you say! And St Paul does mention the Scythians as well.

Robert the Bruce's Declaration of Ardbroath does affirm that "Scythia" and "Scottia" come from the same root and nation - which is why St Andrew is honoured as a common patron for both East Slavs and Scots (not only because St Regulus brought his relics to Scotland).

But the real Celtic experience is in the asceticism which we can hardly hope to emulate - but we can experience some of the depth of Celtic spirituality, its devotion to the psalms, its office and the lives of the Celtic saints.

Tranter goes into details about the Celtic "Cashels" or monasteries, their daily work and so on.

Interestingly, and as Meyendorff himself notes, the Celtic Christians drove the Roman Church in Britain "bananas" because the Celtic Abbot, not the Bishop, was the focus of ecclesial authority.

This was largely because there were no urban centres around in those areas and so the monastery with its Abbot became the centre of church life.

But Scotland really was divided into Highland and Lowland parts and the historic religious development showed the distinction, Celtic influence in the south notwithstanding.

The Highlanders were of the Celtic Rite for the longest time when the Lowlanders were of the Roman Rite.

When Canada received its Loyalists following the American Revolution, we received two kinds of Scots - the Catholic Highlanders and the Protestant Lowlanders - and this is noted from the very beginning of Loyality immigration here.

Alex Carmichael's research in the Highlands, however, showed the great extent to which Celtic hymns and folklore survived the centuries among the people.

Our Irish chaplain at university used to tell us all sorts of Irish stories (he was a missionary during the Biafran war and was taken prisoner and tortured - but he never got into details).

He came from a large family and the warmest spot in the home was in his mother's chair by the hearth.

When mother got up to go to the kitchen, the children all scrambled to get into her chair.

Their mother then turned and said, "Would you climb into my grave as quickly?"

God bless the Irish and Happy All Saints of Eire Day!

Erin Go Bragh!

Alex

Dear Terry,

Another point that came to mind is that studying Celtic Christianity is good for Easterners who somehow believe that the East is somehow superior to the West in terms of asceticism etc.

The Celts beat us out every time!

The Celtic saints standing in the cold water so as not to fall asleep when reciting Psalms . . .

There was a rule that when a bishop died, the Psalter had to be recited for the repose of his soul 600 times . . .

And the Cross Vigil is 100 prostrations at once - not an easy thing even for someone in as great shape as me!

The Celts loved moving to the four directions in cross-wise fashion - just like Eastern bishops do at the beginning of Pontifical Liturgies.

And they did so not only for their "Shrine of Piety" but also before they read scripture.

But what is truly inspirational for me is the way the Celts blessed the right hand of baptismal candidates to "empower it" and make it sacred for the work of performing the Sign of the Holy Cross.

And if a Christian came to them from another Church - he or she would be accepted but had to have the rite of blessing of the right hand done.

This is like the Old Rite tradition of having a pillow or something on the floor when making prostrations so as not to sully the right hand.

I once met a priest who studied the Celtic traditions and I asked if he knew the rite for blessing the right hand.

He did - and he did for me right there and then!

I'm now an adopted Celt, it would seem . . .

(I keep watching reruns of Braveheart . . .)

Alex

And I thought the ONLY Celtics I knew were my Irish-American brother-in-law and Larry Bird and his Boston Celtics!

Of course, everybody here in Chicago claims to be Celtic, or Irish for that matter, on St. Pat's Day.

Our parade IS a festive and joyous occasion for all: African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Italian-Americans, Indian-Americans, Native Americans, Eastern European-Americans, and what have you; everybody and everything turn green, including all branches of the Chicago River, led by our Irish Hizzoner, Mayor Richard M. Daley!!

Ah, to be a leprechaun just for one day!!!

AmdG

Dear Amado,

I don't know, Big Guy, your smiley's looking pretty green to me!

Canada's coat of arms has the Harp of Tara in it together with shamrocks.

We have a very large St Patrick's Day parade - I wrote the proposed legislation for an Irish heritage day on March 17th.

After formal legislative debates in the House, the politicians all got up and sang a rendition of "When Irish eyes are smilin' . . ."

May the road rise to meet y'a
and may the wind be ever at your back
And until we meet again
May the Lord hold you in the
hollow of His Hand

Alex

I believe I read somewhere that the O'Rourke clan is actually descended from the house of Rurik.Anyone know anything about this?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Such history from a small group of hardy folk! All of us have heritage to be proud of. It's all of us together who make the body of believers. I am proud to be a Celt with both Scotch and Irish relatives with the same surname. The Irish and Scotch have given much to both Canada and the US over the last several hundred years. I am most proud that I am in a small way trying to stay true to that ancient faith they knew.

Bail O Dia ort
Michael

You may well have Scotch in your blood, but it is from a bottle, not from your ancestors. The term is "Scots" or "Scottish" if you are refering to a people and not a drink.
And Alex, you are a veritable font of knowledge. I find myself wanting to agree with you in spite of myself because you can be so entertaining. Now about that sabbatical...