www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Celts moving East

Brother Daniel,

Perhaps a wee drop now and again...........


Michael

I would just like to tell a story that my teacher had told me why there was friction between the Celtic Church and the Roman Church based in Canterbury. When Pope Gregory the Great had sent Augustine to be the bishop of the Saxons, the native Celtic Church was unsure of how they should
respond to Augustine. They went to a hermit noted for his sanctity and asked whether they should submit to him or not. He told them that if when they came in to him, if he rose and greeted them then they were to submit to him and accept him as a brother. But, if he stayed seated
then they were to recognize him as a proud man and to have nothing to do with him.

Guess which Augustine of Canterbury did?

Terry

Bless, Father Al!

Yes, "O'Rourke" actually is descended from the Varangian Royal line of Rurik members of whom settled on the west coast of Scotland in the tenth century.

There is another aristocratic family in Scotland that is descended from the East Slavs, "Bohun" whose members fought on the side of Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn and throughout the hero-king's life.

Tranter actually makes direct mention of the Bohuns in his historic novels.

The Celtic construction of names is the same as among the East Slavs with the basic three names of Christian name, Patronym and Surname.

In Ireland and Scotland, as you know, the middle name is always "mac + father's name." In Wales, instead of "mac," it is "ap" as in St Liuddad ap Dintag of Wales ("Lloyd").

And the Ukrainian Kozak Hetman, Bohdan Khmelnitsky, had at least one Scottish general in his army fighting the Poles.

He said of him, "We never understood a single word he said, but he fought like a demon in battle and we were glad to have him on our side."

St Volodymyr the Great was himself a cousin of St Olaf of Norway. Before him, there is also the locally venerated Varangian Christian Princes, Askold and Dir. I don't know why they weren't placed formally in the calendar as yet - St Olha built churches over their graves and I think it is safe to say they were Passion-Bearers if not martyrs.

After the Battle of Hastings, the daughter of King Harold of Hastings, Gytha, went to Sweden where she met the English missionary there, St Sigfridus or Sigfried. Gytha then went to Kyiv where she married St Volodymyr Monomachos (glorified recently by the Orthodox Church) and, by him, bore the next ruler of Kyivan Rus', St Mstislav-Harold who was given the name of his royal English grandfather.

The English Orthodox do venerate King Harold as a saint as well.

Alex

Dear Michael,

Very well said!

The Celtic Rite has, I believe, much more in common with the Eastern spirituality and traditions and you are right on in saying that!

The Celtic monks were the only Western monks who made prostrations - as the East does, for instance.

And we may all adopt certain Celtic practices to do in private. Certainly, the Celtic saints are all part of our common, universal Orthodox-Catholic patrimony.

Your point on Pelagius is also well taken.

Fr. Geoffrey O'Riada did a paper on him - and I too remember conferences on him in university.

While there certainly is such a thing as the heresy of Pelagianism, it is less clear whether Pelagius himself had anything to do with it.

In any event, he was not ill thought of because of his theology as much as for his opposition to Augustine.

St John Cassian also opposed Augustine on similar points . . .

And for this the Roman Church refused to honour Cassian as a saint - except locally at Marseilles (Marsilius).

But Cassian is a full saint in the East.

The other Celtic theologian of the 9th century is John Scotus Eriugena (not the Bl. John Duns Scotus who developed the Immaculate Conception doctrine).

There are independent Celtic church groups in the U.S. who have themselves canonized both Morgan of Wales or Pelagius and John Scotus - and have places of worship dedicated to them.

Alex

Dear Daniel,

There is a fine line between "wanting to agree" and "agreeing!"

God bless you and do get some help with your avatar!

Alex

Alex,

So were the right hands of the Celts "more powerful" in blessing themselves than non-Celtic Christian who didn't have their right hands blessed?

The only way to make sense of this would be either:
a) the right hands of the Celts were more powerful because they were blessed, or
b) the practice of blessing the right hand was superfluous because it doesn't bring any added "power"

I've wondered about this for some time now. Aren't these the only two logical conclusions?

Logos Teen

Dear Teen Logo,

Well, the Byzantine Churches do indeed bless the hands during the Mystery of Baptism - just like in the Celtic and Sarum Rites.

But the Celtic Rite places a solid emphasis as to the "why" the right hand is blessed.

In the Latin Rite, the hands of the priest are especially blessed with oil to consecrate them for the offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass - and it is, of course, a part of the ritual of the Sacrament of the Priesthood.

I think that rite of blessing the right hand is a sacramental only. It doesn't confer any special sacramental "character" or anything like that.

A tradition that serves to remind those who practice it that our bodies are Temples of the Holy Spirit and that our right hand is empowered always to do what Christians should always be doing - invoking the Grace of Jesus Christ on ourselves, others and on the whole world through the Sign of the Cross.

In the Sarum Rite, Communion was distributed by the Priest under the Cross (or "Rood") above the Royal Doors of the Rood Screen (or Iconostasis).

This was to signify that we commune of the Divine Fruit of the Tree of Life - the Cross.

Alex

double posts aye........ well I oughta......

Bail Dia ort!


Alex, please find MORE stuff, I have learned more from you in the last week than I have in reading for years! This is wonderful history, our history, and I just can't get enough!


Many years,
Michael

Dear Son of the Celts!

Actually, I've been holding back on a lot of this - I didn't think people would be interested in hearing about it . . .

Sometimes it makes one feel good that one is wrong!

Alex

In a purely geographic sense, Celts traditionally move West rather than East. Just where the Celts originated is disputed, but it was probably somewhere in Asia - on the basis of musical evidence, believe it or not, some argue for India. But there is a strong traditional mystic/mythic belief in a "Land of the West" awaiting us. C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien both incorporated this myth into their fiction. Perhaps the authentic Byzantium is now in Hy-Brasil (Atlantis to the non-Celts). Incognitus

Dear Alex,


I, for one, can never get enough history,weather tradition or set in concrete. Thanks for sharing anything you may have.


Michael

Dear Incognitus,

Actually, the latest research shows that the Celts began when the La Tene and Hallstadt cultures met together somewhere in the . . . Carpathian Mountains a very long time ago.

One thing that fascinates me about the Celts, but not the only thing, is the very real connections between Celtic and Slavic culture.

Such is affirmed also in the Declaration of Ardbroath in the time of King Robert the Bruce.

Alex

I hope that Alex is not implying that the Celts are really a lost garrison of White Croats who made good! And I find no musical resemblance whatever between traditional Celtic music and prostopinije. Incognitus

Dear Celticson,

There truly are a great number of connections between the Celtic and Byzantine traditions.

The Celts, unlike other Western Rites, worshipped the Holy Trinity, or as Western liturgists would say, "directly to the Three Persons of the Trinity" - as does the Byzantine and other Eastern traditions.

There is, in Celtic spirituality, an "intoxication" with the mystery of the Holy Trinity that is uniquely Celtic - with different emphases than in the East.

The Celts emphasized Theosis through Divine Grace according to a pattern that would be recognized in the East.

More later . . my wife is calling me.

Alex