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Slava Isusu Christu!

I read this interesting article about Old Catholicism by the Most Reverend Raphael Adams of the Old Roman Catholic Church. Check it out tell me what you think! I thought it was written well.

http://www.orccna.org/ourfaith/lastword.htm

It really changed my mind about the Old Catholics.

In Christ,


Rob

Robert, that article was a bunch of horsemanure--a mere angry polemic, and a heretical one at that. His smears and non-sequiturs did not change my mind about anything.

I don't care how "mad" that bishop is--he belongs to a heretical and schismatic body. His position is completely untenable and irreconcilable with the Apostolic Faith.

I have noticed a tendency among some here to be sympathetic towards anyone or anything that attacks Rome.

LatinTrad

Sometimes I wonder if I made a mistake leaving. Don

Slava Isusu Christu!

I think you have me wrong Trad. I just thought the article was interesting from their perspective. I have never heard their side before and to tell you the truth the article is rather humorous

Father Don:

I always wondered about your ordination. Why did the Ukies not receive you as a priest if your orders in the Old Roman Catholic Church were valid? Did you just not want to pursue it?

Thx all! Luv ya.

In Christ,

Rob

My pastor was pushing me to have them recognized, but I chose not to pursue it. Had I wished to remain an active priest I would have stayed with the Old Roman Catholic Church. Don

The Old Catholic Churches did not preserve any order or visible unity. Just remember that nearly all of the vagante movements degenerated from them. Old Catholic Bishops even worked as puppets for Communist and secular regimes to attack the Latin Church.

In the 1930's, the Communists consacrated a Bishop for their puppet Mexican Church helped by Bishop John Henry Camphora of the USA. Perez B�dar, the priest who was consacrated, was a member of a masonic lodge.

At least in my country, those priests who had allied with them, had been expelled from their seminaries or excommunicated.

It's unfortunate because if the Old Catholic movement had had some order and unity, it would have more legitimacy. Moreover, there are many priests and people there who would be excellent priests and Bishops for Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

I think Old Catholic bashing is unwarranted, really. They are Western Catholics trying to have an Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. They also could be viewed as a "Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils" from a Western perspective.
I mean ask any Orthodox Christian what their ecclesiology is based on and they will tell you: where the Bishop is there is the Catholic Church; it's that simple. That was the ecclesiology of the Early Church by the way:)

And Don I respect your journey.

In the Lover of Mankind,

Robert

"I belong to her in the only way that I care to belong to her-in spirit and in truth; by the bond of my free conviction that no bishop can snap. . ."

This sentence, quoted and endorsed in the article, seems to me as good a definition of protestantism as any I have yet seen.

I agree with LatinTrad that most of the article would make reasonably good fertilizer, the low point being first smearing the Pope's name with pornographic imagery ("missionary position") and then later whimpering: "We maintain that we are "in union" with the pope, and thus with everyone who holds and affirms the essential credal faith and sacramental praxis of the one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church..."

I must confess that I have never seen writing like this, attacking other confessions, on any Catholic official homepage before.

If this is the sort of thing that's politely applauded on this website, I'm outta here.

Hmmm,
He also has problems with "Orccy-Occy" . He uses that term exclusively, never mentioning othodoxy without using the "Orccy-Occy" phrase in it's place. Yes, he is mad as hell and rambling on his way there.

The article changed MY mind about "old catholics". I feel much better about being Byzantine "Ruthenian" Catholic now.

Steve,
WHo just returned from a very pleasant Eastern Catholicpilgramage at Holy Ressurection Monastery.

The article is all rather tongue in cheek, isn't it? As a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic myself I don't feel the nessecity to throw stones when we all live in glass houses. It just goes to show that we all need to feel superior in one way or another. Most of world Orthodoxy thinks we are worst than so-called "vagantes"; in their mind we had the true Orthodox Eastern Faith and left it by our communion with heretics i.e. the Latins; so you see it is better to put down the rocks and get out the glass cleaner

In Christ,
Rob

Slava Isusu Christu!

Rogo:

First, I take full responsibility for MY posts; which neither reflect the consensus of this Forum (look up the word "Forum" and get back to me), nor my Church.

Second, Leaving is your decision.

Third, The topic was given so as to learn from the Old Catholics. They are so often judged and I thought it would be nice to let them vent some as in the case of the rather polemical article. But it did reveal some of the feelings of these independent Catholics. I certainly never had a chance to be exposed to their worldview.

Fourth, That is why I posted this in the Town Hall.

Blessings,
Rob

If you would like to read more about these various churches, try and find a copy of *Bishops at Large*, by Peter F. Anson, published in the early nineteen-sixties. Incognitus

Have any idea about who might publish this book?

I'll try an Amazon search.

thx.

It has been out of print for years and when you can find copies they are quite expensive. When I sold mine on ebay I got about $100 and have seen them going for more since then. I had an extensive library on Old/Independent Catholicism and Orthodoxy that I have dispossed of since becoming Ukie Catholic. Don

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hi Steve!

I am almost positive that Orccy-Occy refers to the "Old Roman Catholic-Old Catholic" churches, not Orthodoxy. It's a cluster of autonomous churches that will not normally speak with one voice. The article makes more sense to me when read that way, although it had me going for a bit there.

The tone of the writing left something to be desired, even off-putting, but he made what to me were some interesting comments related to Jansenism and also to the alleged spin-doctoring.

The Roman Church was under a lot of strain at the time of the unification of Italy. The Papacy was shut up and all of it's territorial prerogatives were removed. There was a crises in confidence and a lot of debate about the future direction the church should take.

There seem to have been two powerful ideas within the western church at the time: Ultramontanism on the one hand and the Conciliar movement on the other. It is clear which party came out on top and this unfortunate schism is a result of all that mess. Considering the period of latinization that was fully underway after this time I am not positive that things turned out all that well for the Eastern Catholics because of it.

In a sense the Toth-led movement to Orthodoxy was just another expression of the tensions that created the Old Catholic movement.

It is interesting to me that the Old Catholic/Conciliar movement had undercurrents throughout the western church even after Vatican I, but all (or most) of the actual breaks were over parochial issues.

The Polish National Catholic church (for example) arose over the issue of Polish parishes being pastored and shepherded by non-Poles, and even today they make a big deal out of the fact that parish property is in the hands of the parish, not the bishop, another touchy issue of the day! This was at the same time the Ruthenian churches were having all of their conflicts with the hierarchy. These groups felt much abused by an unsympathetic mostly Irish-American hierarchy. I think that we have much in common at that level.

I love the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic church!

I am glad you had a good time, I envy you. I hope to be able to join you there in a following year!

Peace in Christ
Michael, that sinner