www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall OCCULT WATCH: PSYCHICS AND DARK FORCE

I heard something about that the Catholic Church in the early middle ages considered belief in witchcraft and the existance of witches to be heresy.

Can anyone elaborate on this?

Christian

I heard something about that the Catholic Church in the early middle ages considered belief in witchcraft and the existance of witches to be heresy.

I find it believeable, because some time back, Discovery or the History Channel - I don't remember which - did a program on the truth about the Spanish Inquisition. The program stated that the Inquisitors were university trained lawyers who didn't believe in witchcraft. It also stated that approximately 3,500 people were put to death in Spain over a 300 year period - none for witchcraft. During the same period, 25,000 or so were killed in France and England for witchcraft. The program indicated that Protestants spread propaganda and lies about the Spanish Inquisition to make the Church look bad. Keep in mind that this is from my memory of the program which I watched a year or two ago.

Alice, there are many questions your post raises, and many issues which I want to address, albeit briefly.


Wishing harm to anyone is indeed an evil, whether by an evil eye, or a punch in the face. We can agree that any method of trying to destroy someone, has within it, an evil. This is why I have found Bush's response to 9-11 to be devestating. It is the "we will get back at you" attitude, not "we will help restore the balance and fix things, and heal wounds."

So, stock market reports, analysis of what is going on so as to predict what people might do tomorrow (like terrorist predictions), etc would all be wrong, too? It is trying to play God and predict the future. We should never make plans, ever, since they are all based upon our own predictions of the future as well. All playing God, right?

But let us go further. Not all the objects you listed are used for "divination." Tarot Cards, for example, have a long history, and I have a beautiful replica deck. While some people might abuse them for purposes of divinization, that does not make them, themselves, evil. In fact, there is a long Christian heritage, using them as archetypal representations, almost with the same ideology as iconography in fact. Lessons are learned in the cards, and one can meditate on them. There is a great book you might want to check out, sometime. Yes, it is "occult" in that it deals with Tarot cards, and the "mysteries" involved with them -- and so "hidden" from normal people, since they don't know how to read them and understand their meaning. _Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism." The author is anonymous, but has recieved praise from illuminaries like Hans Urs Von Balthasar (who gave a copy of the work to the Pope!), Basil Pennington, and Bede Griffiths.

Don't forget, btw, Christianity was itself "occult" in its foundations. A mystery religion, keeping itself hidden from the government, not only to stop persecutions, but to keep its holy of holies, the eucharist, out of the hands of those who were not initiates.

Sadly, I think you are the one who has been confused and do not know the issues. This is why I gave the example of St Albert and St Thomas.
Things are not as clear cut as "that's evil" as you make it out to be. The Church has far more complexities in its answers for which is not right to do, and for what reasons. But if one followed what you said here, for example, no one would ever plan ahead, because it would rely upon predicting the future, known only to God.
That is a dangerous outcome of your way of thinking.

Many Saints and Doctors of the Church explored the wisdom of the world, including the so-called occult. St Nicholas is known to have used a demon-trap, in fact... things are not as clear as modern, post-reformation, post-Inquisition, post-Enlightenment combination would like us to believe.

Christian, they considered the belief that witches had real _power_ to do things, or that the devil could, for example, make people really shapechange to be heresy. Basically, the question is how much power do you give the devil or not, and when it went too far, it was seen as a semi-dualist heresy.

So, not the idea that there are people who think they are witches, or act out on their desires, but the power these people have is where the question lay.

I get more argumentative responses to stating what my church has taught me, what my spiritual fathers have taught and told me, on this forum than if I were on a secular forum!

You would think I was spewing heresy!

I have been told to purge anything occultic from my home by my spiritual fathers. THAT is my religion. If you like that stuff, fine! I will just keep my icons and statues, which have been blessed by a priest, ofcourse!

I adhere to the Church, and the wisdom of ancient prayers and sermons, like those of St. John Chrysostom.

I am totally out of here.

Alice

Dear Alice,

If you are a leader of a heretical sect, where do I sign up?

Alex

So, not the idea that there are people who think they are witches, or act out on their desires, but the power these people have is where the question lay.

Exactly. Unfortunately - and I know it is politically incorrect to say this - our Catholic thinking has been somewhat warped by the Protestant Reformation. Some of my fellow Byzantine Catholics in this area hold views on this, and other subjects that are straight out of Southern Baptist and Calvinist theology. I know we are supposed to be in the world, and not of it, but our area is only 5% or so Catholic. Perhaps it is easier for those Protestant ideas to cross over here than in mostly Catholic areas. Of course there are people who do evil things, but they don't have supernatural powers. Doing evil doesn't always require the intervention of the Devil. People are quite capable of doing evil on their own.

Dear Christian,

Actually, witchcraft was believed to be a heresy because it involved Christians who not only apostatized to this form of paganism, but also because the rites involved the blasphemous use of Christian theology and ritual.

This is also why Islam was once considered to be a Christian heresy because it incorporates a belief in Jesus and His Mother in a way that would be most definitely heretical from the Christian perspective.

My province of Ontario has the "Wiccan church" and there is even a "Wiccan chaplaincy" that is formally funded for the Ontario provincial government.

I have seen the annual report of the provincial chaplaincy service that has the symbols of the various religions that have chaplains for the provincial civil servants.

And there is the five-pointed star for the Wiccans, along side the Cross, Star of David, Crescent etc.

I'm not making that up . . .

Alex

Alex, just think about the time of Constantine, and what they would have said.

"I saw people carrying shields with crosses, I kid you not..."

Dear Henry Karlson,

I think you have to be careful when discussing these sort of things.

You are right that tarot cards and even astrology were used by the Church and by Christians.

I have a copy of a book of Hours that mention the signs of the zodiac etc.

Dream interpretation was also big as well as the various "secret" rites of gnostic sects, the Templars. As you know, the Masons are descended from the Catholic guild of masons to which even popes belonged (until 1707).

But a standard interpretation of this has yet to be written from a Christian point of view. And the New Age is hardly something that is supportive of Christianity in any way.

In terms of evil and possession - my Catholic teachers used to ridicule all that.

And yet, I have myself witnessed paranormal events in my life - one such event was written up as a formal report and submitted to the federal government in Ottawa with my old home address contained in it!

I have seen these things along with others. Others have turned away, telling me to turn away as well - they later tried to deny what their senses told all of us we were seeing.

During these events, I looked around, shook my head, and otherwise tried to determine that there might not be another explanation for what was so painfully obvious.

Others who experienced these things with me took the initiative to get busy and write down a description etc.

I've an open mind on these things, but I do believe that evil does manifest itself and, according to Eastern Christian tradition, the air and sky above is where many such manifestations occur.

Such manifestations have been noted by saints and scholars for centuries - the manifestations "adapt" themselves to the times and situation in which they make themselves present to our senses.

I've spoken to surgeons and psycologists who have told me that there have been things that have happened during their sessions with their patients that have no scientific explanation - but a religious one.

But why is it that so many students of religion/theology are among the first to dismiss so much of this?

One would think that they would offer their particular expertise in these matters to help illuminate matters for those who have no training in spirituality or theology to confront them.

Alex

Dear Henry,

I don't know what people at the time of Constantine would have said, I wasn't there.

Were you?

And if you think you were, then you really do have a contribution to make to this thread!

Alex

Just call me Henry. No need for the last name.

I agree, which is why I stated what I did. The issue started with "look how bad and evil all this is, and it is all the fault of Vatican II." We both can go back and study the history of the Church, and find the occult goes hand in hand with philosophy, and with philosophy, which was respected by the Church, the occult and its ideas were discussed. Some aspects are rightfully denied -- but people take particulars, and then extrapolate in wrong ways. Which is why I responded as I did.

(Side note: more Saints and fathers to look into: St Clement of Alexandria, Synesius of Cyrene, and Nemesius of Edessa).

And still can be. As I said, I have a beautiful replica of an early tarot deck. While I dont normally get them out to meditate, I do know the significance of the deck and how it can be used, properly.

The Zodiac is all over the place in Christian literature. Astrology really was condemned, not because it was "predicting" the future as much as it was trying to determine the future, and eliminate free will. That is the real issue with astrology and its condemnation in the Fathers.

The connection of Masonry to Catholicism is hard to substantiate. I won't argue, however, that secret societies did start around the renaissance. In fact, it seems that Bruno might be the inspiration for the Rosicruicians, which probably is the true foundation of modern "gnostic secret rites."

The New Age is just what anyone wants to make it. They will label something New Age, if they don't like it, whether or not it is New Age. Like Harry Potter. It isn't New Age, it is just a good fairy story in the tradition of Lewis and Tolkien. But some will say "it mentions witchcraft, it is New Age." Because of the fear they have with New Age, they are willing to label things which seems "supernatural" as New Age.

While I have not read it, I know Fr. George Maloney, S.J. wrote a book on the New Age, which I intend to get sometime. Has anyone else read it?

Oh, and on dream interpretation, Synesius of Cyrene wrote a book on it

Alex, I agree, possession is also real. It exists. It is a danger. But it is a danger which is not exclusive to "New Age." It is a danger which can happen, if one just "lets" the evil in, in many ways. I fear, for example, the kind of hate we see for Muslims, can itself help cause more possesion, opening people up for it, as they cut away charity and live in hate and fear.

Possession is real, and it is dangerous. I will agree. But I will not say that, because it is real, therefore, we should just hammer away at "the occult" and think that is solving it. Since it isn't, and it really neglects the real issues. It was, as I said above, the issue of will..

Henry

Alex, I have read materials from the anti-Christian writers at the time. It reads a lot like the writings I read against Wicca today. No, I don't agree with Wicca, I find it is a really shallow, sham faith. But the point is still the same. People often view the unknown, the "new comer" with fear, loathing, scorn.

As a Christian, while I don't agree with Wicca, I also don't agree that it should be demonized. It was as I posted by CS Lewis in another post. It is time we reconnected the world to the supernatural, to "paganism," and then maybe we can re-christianize them. I see this "re-paganization" in the light of Lewis, and I agree, it is the way beyond the secularism of the age.

"I saw people carrying shields with crosses, I kid you not..."

Were they slightly inebriated and holding swords upraised in shaky hands? Were bingo cards sticking out of their pockets? Maybe they were Knights of Columbus

Dear Henry,

I don't demonize the Wiccans - in fact, working in government protocol, I would have been in trouble were I to have done this as this is an official faith here!

As for Vatican II, perhaps some Catholics go a bit too far with experimenting with other faiths as a result of a perceived liberalism brought in by this council - I don't know, I only hold to the Seven Ecumenical Councils!

A friend of mine who teaches at a private Catholic college and who happens to be an OCA priest told me about certain practices conducted by teachers at the college in the chapel itself.

I don't know about those things, but they've nothing to do with the celebration of the Mass or the Divine Office or paraliturgical devotions if you ask me!

At Chartres, and I was just there last month, one can see the intricate maze drawings on the stone floor of the Cathedral which were taken from the pagan traditions and given a Christian meaning - the struggle along the path to salvation etc.

As you yourself said, most Christians would be scandalized about these things and so it is best to avoid that.

You are obviously advanced in the knowledge of these and many other things - but so you have to treat us simple folk with kit gloves!

God bless,

Alex