www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall OCCULT WATCH: PSYCHICS AND DARK FORCE

I was reading an article entitled OCCULT WATCH: PSYCHICS AND DARK FORCE HAVE SPREAD ACROSS BREADTH OF SOCIETY and I came to this paragraph Paranoid? Fundamentalist? What our society allows today on an average television show would have frightened just about every major Christian society over the past 2,000 years and has gone so far into the occult domain that average Christians no longer recognize it. Yet, it has only been since the Sixties that such things have been allowed into the open. And as occult experts warn (most recently Father Gabriel Amorth, the official Rome exorcist), it is all taken far too lightly by the Church, which has not been preaching the dangers. And to make it clear, I am not knocking the Roman Church, I am just struck by this thought of mine.

Well it was like I got hit over the head by this sentence in the paragraph, Yet, it has only been since the Sixties that such things have been allowed into the open. Well it wasn't just Viet Nam and the Beatles, along with many other secular happenings that changed America and the world. It was Vatican II, it didn't just allow changes in the church. Yeah, in a way I was aware of it, but you know I guess what struck me is that the mystery and respect of God was removed from the world, not just the church. I mean if you walk into one our Byzantine or Orthodox Churches, whether you realize this understanding or not, you know you are no longer on earth's scedule of things, but instead you are joined together with the cloud of witnesses standing together giving God the glory. You see the glory of God in worship. A protestant friend of our oldest son has been going to church with them, and he said to us just those words. "I have you (the church) all figured out, you are all about the mystery and respect of God. I like it." I mean he saw it, he understood the difference. Vatican II ask the East to go back to its roots, yet it through the door wide open for the West to abandon some roots that were long established, at least for the modern world.

When Vatican II removed the mystery and the respect that is shown to God in the Roman Mass, it opened the doors wide open for this other nonsence to jump in. OH I hope I am making sence. It is not that worship it wasn't there, it just isn't glorius as it had been, to come before God in worship. So much that held people in mystery and fear of God was lost. OH well, like I said I don't know if I am making sence, and I am sure many have thought of this a lot but it just struck me so strongly.

The bottom line is when the door of worship at home and in the church was closed, changed from the way it had been, another door swung wide open one the world did not need at all. Here is the rest of that article. http://www.spiritdaily.com/occultwatch.htm

Pani Rose

Pani Rose,

Thanks for the link. Pope Paul VI has been quoted "That he feared Satan had entered the Church", wish I could remember where I read it.

Many of us can't read the signs of the times.

james

Jakub I found this article of a talk given by Mother Angelica with that statement in it.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MEDIA/MOTHERA.TXT

People get so worked up over nothing. They get traditionalists attacking the Catholic Church, using no sense of logic, but pure rhetoric.

The Church has a history of "the occult" since the beginning (the three magi went to Christ, the horror of it all, three astrologers!). We can find that, connected with Greek philosophy, was Greek occult theories -- like an immortal soul (many Jews did not like that. Oh horror! the change!).

People really have this "the occult is bad" or "pagans are bad" idea, and then they fall for every sham bait and switch which comes their way. "See, we told you things are bad... this is occult!!! This is pagan!!!!"

The same kind of approach is what got St Thomas Aquinas condemned in his day -- for going to "that pagan, Aristotle." He "changed things." In the good ole days "it wasn't Aristotle this, Aristotle that, we had Augustine."

We can find such changes consistent in history, and consistently people getting upset and talking about how the Church has now let in evil.

I thought the Magi were astronomers not astrologers. Correct me if I'm wrong .

Thanks Pani Rose. My semi senior mind had a minor power outage.

james

As a Latin Rite Catholic, I think there's plenty of mystery in the Latin Church. I'm all too aware that my human mind is incredibly limited, and that there is so much that I do not know. So, that being said, I really don't find Pani's descriptions to be accurate.

I think society's fascination with the occult is due in part to the relegation of mainstream religion (esp. Christianity) to the sidelines. Religion has become a more subjective experience to many people, and they probably like the fact that they can pick and choose what they'd like in the more occultish religions, such as in the Wiccan religion, for example. Because Christianity has been relegated to the sidelines, people have lost a sense of identity (as identity in Christ is our true identity). That being said, they like the self-empowerment these "religions" offer. (At least, that's my guess.)

God bless,

Jennifer

I thought the Magi were astronomers not astrologers. Correct me if I'm wrong .

I am not sure there was that much distinction between the two in ancient times. They seem to have overlapped somewhat.

Thanks for the link. Pope Paul VI has been quoted "That he feared Satan had entered the Church",

I think he said something similar to this, that the smoke of Satan had entered the church. He may have been right. However, if you talk to some Latin Traditionalists, they will indicate to you that Pope Paul VI held the door of the church open for Satan to enter. At least, that is what I have been told by some of them.

We can find such changes consistent in history, and consistently people getting upset and talking about how the Church has now let in evil

I think you are right about this. When was there a time in Church history when evil wasn't present? As a school librarian, I have heard from supposedly educated adults about the horrors of some kid's books because they contain witchcraft. My usual response is along the lines of, "aren't you a little old to be believing in witches?" I do believe evil is present, and has always been with us. But I see no reason to live in fear of it. It will lose, eventually, in God's good time.

What I see is that, maybe putting it this way, that when the pomp and circumstance ( a very materialistic way of explaining what I am saying)was removed. Jennifer said the mystery is still there and she is absolutely correct, the same elements of worship are there, the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, it is all still there. But, the magesterial beauty that took the worship away from it's mystery is missing in many places.

I truly feel that the Roman Rite is beautiful in it's simplicity. That is what happened though. I was blessed to go with a friend to her graduation from junior high back in the sixties. As a Baptist I walked away with wonder and awe of what I had just seen, it was at a Cathedral in Anapolis MD, it was seeing the beauty and wonder of Christ present in his sactuary, in the Eucharist.

When Vatican II allowed that to be removed from the churches, to be removed from worship, it removed a lot from the world. I don't know how else to explain what I am trying to say. In doing so it brought in confusion and confusion allows for darkness to enter.

Oh well before I continue to stick my foot in my mouth trying to explain what I am feeling in my heart and mind I will stop.

Jennifer I am sorry if I have offened you or anyone else.

Pani Rose

Dear Pani Rose,

I don't think that you put your foot in your mouth. Sometimes people just make us feel like we have!

Regarding the Occult in general:

The occult has existed and been practiced peripherally in in many Christian cultures through the ages, with Christians not being taught or not realizing just in WHO's world they are dabbling. The desire to engage in occultic practices usually stems from an evil heart that wishes to do harm to another. Thus,there have always been people in Christian Mediterranean and Middle Eastern countries (from Southern Italy, through Greece, the Balkans, and Syria/Lebanon) through the ages, that have sought out professional witches, usually to wish harm on another person's life...and this evil is not to be laughed at-- there are many stories of lives destroyed because of it. The ancient Church had a prayer which is still used by priests in Orthodoxy, called 'Prayer for the deliverance from evil'...in it it mentions all sorts of occultic practices wished on the person seeking deliverance:

An excerpt: "...You are
the savation of those who turn to you. We beseech you to make
powerless, banish, and drive out every diabolic power, presence, and
machination; every evil influence, malefice, or evil eye and all evil
actions aimed against your servants...

May he keep at bay and vanquish every evil power,
every poison or malice invoked against us by corrupt and envious
people. Then, under the protection of your authority may we sing, in
gratitude, "The Lord is our salvation; whom should we fear? I will not
fear evil because you are with us, my God, my strength, my powerful
Lord, Lord of peace, Father of all ages..."

I thank God that the Christian High School I attended warned us about horoscopes, ouija boards, fortune tellers, etc. Otherwise, I was just as naive as anyone else about these things.

And for those who think that this is just ridiculous superstitions that can't harm you, I will tell you the story of a young girl (14) we know...out of nowhere she got so suicidal she almost jumped infront of train tracks. Her parents snooped online and found that she had been going to websites about vampires. God only knows how much of this diabolical garbage on the internet and on t.v. and in movies is allowing the evil one free entrance into young ignorant souls, and after that, how many suicides and mental illnesses ensue.

Lord have mercy!

Thank you Rose for always bringing these very important matters to our attention, and hopefully, they will be spoken about in families and circles of friends, and hopefully, will avert any possible destruction from the master of destruction. As my priest says, if you really want to make the devil happy, just ignore his existence!

(I sure hope that no one jumps on me for this now, because it took alot for me to write anything here after yesterday!)

Lots of love in our Christ,
Alice

P.S.Disclaimer: I am not commenting on anything about the Catholic church in this post.

Oh, I don't deny that the Devil exists. I'm sure he does. But I also believe that many or most of the individuals in ancient times and today who thought they had supernatural powers, were just deluded souls who were mistaken. I have heard priests say that one of the sins of witchcraft is attributing to oneself powers that belong only to God. It's interesting, and also frightening, that in an age when most are educated, superstition is rampant. It's everywhere, from the crystal peddlers to the people pushing the latest supposed Marian apparition. In my own church, there are people who would drive cross-country if they heard Mary was appearing on a garage door. I distinctly remember that Christ said, "If you hear I am in the desert, don't go." Like I said, I do believe the Devil exists. But he's probably not hiding behind every rock waiting to get me. Perhaps some evil people are...

As a convert from the protestant faith (Presby), I feel that there is more majesty in the Eastern Church. More reverence, beauty in the liturgy. I feel more respect is given to the liturgy as a whole.
Tari

Alice wrote
I sure hope that no one jumps on me for this now, because it took alot for me to write anything here after yesterday!)

Alice I hope you are ok. Thanks so much for stepping out in faith to speak about this. I would really like to have the whole prayer if you have an address for it.

It is a subject that is very real to me because of working with people through the years with problems of this nauture.

Someone wrote the best thing to do is ignore him. I agree and not give him credit for anything, but there has to be an awareness. Jesus didn't say to be dumb about these matters, but to be alert. In the name of Jesus we have the authority to conquer everything, he gave us a Spirit of Power not timidity. He is the Word Incarnate, if we use his Word in our lives and truly believe what it says we are victorius. And even if our faith is not there yet we will get in line with it, because God said so.

ByzanTn wrote
I do believe evil is present, and has always been with us. But I see no reason to live in fear of it. It will lose, eventually, in God's good time.

I say AMEN! to that
Pani Rose

There is an old story about St Albertus Magnus and St Thomas Aquinas, which, I think represents two different views.

St Albertus had, working with manuals and experimenting around, made a talking statue of sorts (the stories differ, some say it was just a head which talked, others say it was more like a golem which moved around. If I had to guess, I would say more likely some sort of mechanical head).

St Thomas Aquinas went to St Albert's and saw the thing moving, and thought it had to be the working of the devil and destroyed it.

Now, it can be admitted, whatever it was, St Albert developed the skill to make it through his occult studies. He probably learned it through Hermetic researches (the Egyptians had the skill in making moving statues, using pullies, energy from the sun, etc). Yet was it really Satanic?

If you answer yes, and agree with St Thomas Aquinas, you might also want to destroy your computer, your tv set, and anything else which has "moving images." They too come from the same 'occult' sources and ideas in their development.

JRR Tolkien in his writings makes note that "machine" and "magic" are cognates, and both are about making a way to have control over nature.

As a side note -- the magi were astrologers, and it is because of this they read 'signs' in the stars. How did the star tell them where to find Jesus? Because of how it fit in their star-charts. Even the Akathist talks about those who worshiped the stars learned to worship the sun of righteousness. Yet, we must remember, they DID use occult means, and it is made into an important biblical story.

Dear Henry,

Wishing harm, as in the 'evil eye' (which is actually evil wished from the 'eye' of the soul, aka: the heart), putting curses on others, methods of witchcraft are evil. The Church in its wisdom, East and West, says so, period.

Also, anything which presumes to supercede God's Omnipotence in knowing our future such as fortune telling, tea leaf reading, palm reading, coffee cup reading, ouija boards (which really work..therefore, it must be the spirit of a demon), tarot cards, etc. are evil and are not to be used or employed by a Christian. The Church tells us so, East and West.

Ofcourse, I am sure that you know all this, and that you are discussing different things than I am. However, these are so dangerous, (invoking demons in some cases and even damning your soul in other cases--) that I wouldn't want any innocent person reading this thread to get confused.

Unfortunately, there are confused souls in Orthodox and Catholic cultures that think it is okay to go employ demons to destroy people on the one hand, and be church goers on the other....the religion known as 'Santeria' for instance used in Cuba and Central and South America.

Sincerely in Christ our Lord,
Alice

P.S. All the entertainment rage here in N.Y. for the past few years at private parties (even children's birthday parties ) is 'tarot card reading'. Thanks be to God this 'entertainment' came after my children's birthday party years. What ever happened to clowns????