www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Are we in union even with these people?

Edited by me for beinh too honest and funny.

I don't think this is what the Mass was intended to be. This is like priests who would "pray" the full page silent prayers of the 1962 Mass in 10 seconds. Any Liturgy can be abused.

The linked website is simply laughable, the dancing whatevertheyare's... what was that? Was that a Mass or simply an ecumenical something, or was it a Bible study or some pseudo-liturgical function?

These types have no idea of what Christian worship is. Their prayer form is more akin to pagan worship. The way we pray is the way we believe. The distorted worship form you witnessed on the video is evidence of the distorted belief espoused by many of the religious educators and liturgists who planned and attended this event, and the mindset of the bishop there.

Praise be to the Lord for our Byzantine tradition! Spare us, Lord, from any of these kind of innovators in our church!

Memo,

I sense you may be trying to tell us something about the liturgy at this conference but I don't know what it is. We know it was a mass offered at a conference for educators. How does this affect the way it was offered? How does this fact make any difference regarding how the mass was offered?

Could you elaborate, please?

CDL

I posted my thoughts on that other thread. I'll repeat my conclusions, here.

That Mass was pathetically and blasphemously conducted. It was 47% theatrical production, 47% pep-rally, 5% Christian service and 1% neo-pagan service. See https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=003092;p=4 .

However, I think the appropriate response to this outrage should not be derision. Correction? Yes. But entitling this thread "Are we in union even with these people?" is derision. "These people" --even though they are confused, misguided, and perhaps even sinful-- are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We have to be in union with them because Christ is in union with them. "Whatsoever you did to the least of My brothers, that you did unto Me." So, they need our prayers as well as our criticism.

-- John

That is not true.

The ultimate goal of the Mass / Divine Liturgy is to worship God, to pray for others and for ourselves to God, and to commune with God. Every duly authorized form of the Mass / Divine Liturgy can achieve this goal when it is properly celebrated. That includes the novus ordo form of the Mass. And, that is what happens in the vast majority of the times when the novos ordo Mass is celebrated.

Yes, I do think that there are some in the Catholic Church --usually, but not always, those of a more liberal persuasion-- who are more interested in worshipping themselves because they, in effect, treat the Gospel as a metaphor for secular humanism and new age gnosticism. And that comes across in how they sometimes abuse the liturgy of the Mass and thereby blaspheme God.

But, the kind of egregious liturgical abuse and blasphemy --like what was shown in that video-- is not the norm nor the purpose of the Roman Catholic Mass.

The norm for Catholic worship (at least in the U.S., from what I have seen), is the reverent celebration and reception of the Eucharist. They worship God by worshipping Christ in the Eucharist. Yes, the ritual can often become somewhat of a routine. Yes, the people may not always show the degree of fervor or reverence that should be hoped for. But, yes, most of the time they follow the rules for the ritual of the Mass, and they do so because they want to worship God.

-- John

John,

Your admonision is noted. How shall we correct a bishop?

CDL

This certainly WAS laughable... well, I kind of alternated between wanting to laugh and wanting to cry... the dancing looked absolutely ridiculous.

But if you read up on the drafting of the novus ordo Mass, and the drafting of the VII document "Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy", and who and what was behind both of them, you'll find that this type of self-worship is unfortunately exactly what they had in mind. A recommended read on this topic is Liturgical Timebombs in Vatican II by Michael Davies. Sad, frightening, but true.

And it's true that not all RC Masses are like this... but the point is that there shouldn't be ANY Masses like this.

God bless,

Karen

Dan,

[shaking my head in perplexity] I don't know . . . I don't know. I wish I did know how to correct a bishop, especially after viewing that -- that video of that blasphemy.

I suspect, however, that the solution will involve the old reliables of the Faith: prayer, fasting and almsgiving. And the almsgiving will include men who give their lives to Christ and His Church as holy priests. (And the rest of us must encourage them with our prayers, example and exhortations.) By the humble and pious ministry of holy priests, the true redeeming power of the Holy Spirit through the Divine Liturgy / the Mass will be unleashed.

Oh Heavenly King / Spirit of Truth / everywhere present and filling all things / come and abide in us/ cleanse of every impurity / and save our souls, / Oh Good One. Amen.

-- John

I am of the opinion, no disrespect to CaelumJR and this reply is not directed toward him at all, that I don't care if this is LALA-Land or Lapland or Swaziland - this is unacceptable. This mockery of the most Holy Sacrament is an abomination.

And to be honest, no matter who currently holds the Seat of Peter the circumstance of the Church should never have been allowed to degrade to the point where a Prince of the Church should be presiding over such a disgraceful display of disrespect.

I realize that most Catholics (especially those of the Latin Rite) pin their hopes on Pope Benedict XVI. I, too, pray that under his guidance that things begin to change for the better. But the truth is that the more the Roman Church has tried to centralize authority in Rome the more these abuses have flourished.

The laity cannot expect that the Holy Father can reign in all abuses and all such disrespect when the Bishops of the Church ignore that which they do not like and continue to go their own way (especially here in the land of AMChurch). It is our Bishops who must do the majority of the dirty work of cleaning this house. Sadly most of them will not do so, even at the urging of the Holy Father.

It is wonderful that the Catholic Church has a man who appears to be a very orthodox and devout man. But I think perhaps that this situation may be beyond even him to fix.

The Catholic Church is in a sad state and it grieves me to see it so.

I, too, wonder how long I can stomach being "in communion" (or more precisely subject to) a Church that allows such goings on as this, the "Mega Parish" outside of Chicago and a priest "concelebrating" the Mass with a Church of Ireland priest.

Now let's all hold hands while we pray the Our Father and have a nice rousing signing of Kumbya.

Carole

Carole,

While I sympathize with your sense of outrage, I think there is much to be hopeful about. It won't be the pope, the bishops or any of us who cleans house, i.e. who reforms the Church. It will be Christ who reforms the Church. And He will do so by grace, often through men and women who are open to grace. He will use, now as always, saints to be His vehicles for His grace to touch and transform people.

When I look at the present situation in the Church, it reminds me of the Counter-Reformation period. The Church then had poor liturgical life, many sins and weaknesses among the clergy, and new doctrines that were attracting people away from the Faith. There had been a massive Church council --Trent-- which people were unsure and (at times) unwilling to implement. Yet, it was holy people --saints-- who allowed the grace of God to implement the reform of the Church: by interior conversion of the heart that, in turn, overflowed into exterior practices and attitudes and deeds.

At the risk of sounding simplistic, all we need to do --and all we can do-- is to strive by the grace of God to become holy: by allowing Christ to do the work of reform within us and in others.

-- John

Bold text originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:


Do you people even know what you are talking about?

yes


Do you know what this is?

Blasphemy, lunacy, ridiculous, madness, derangement, liberalism at its finest, adsurdness, paganist. That should do for now.


Were you there?
Thank goodness I was not there. However, if I was I can guarantee you would have seen me in the video doing Cardinal Mahoney's job of putting a stop to this.



So quick to point fingers you are!

Be happy I'm using the finger that I am.


mc

To Michael Cerularius: I think that your analysis of the situation is correct. What was portrayed in that video was blasphemous and disgusting.

To those of you who are questioning your communion with Rome on account of this liturgy: I would say that you need to slow down and think.

When Christ established the Church as the sole sure means of salvation, He never guarranteed that there wouldn't be idiots like Cardinal Mahoney, and He never guarranteed that said idiots wouldn't adulterate proper Christian practice. Leaving the Catholic Church is a completely irrational response to this--we need to "rebuke the prelate," as St. Thomas Aquinas would say, or "resist him," as St. Paul did St. Peter on the issue of judaizing.

But the Church is still the Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against it.

LatinTrad

MizByz1974-

Are you saying that the CSL itself is defective? If so, what specifically about it is defective?

If it - in and of itself - is not defective, are you then saying the document's OK but the people and thought process behind it is not?

Markos

Latin Trad,

I appreciate your agreement of my assessment.

To your remark:'To those of you who are questioning your communion with Rome on account of this liturgy: I would say that you need to slow down and think.'

I penned the title of this thread and I am not questioning Byzantine Catholics communion with Rome, I am questioning Cardinal Mahoney and his archdiocese's communion with Rome and every other Catholic Rite. Frankly the title is somewhat tounge and cheek as well. Look, I'm just one guy with no power sitting out here in Ohio and really the only thing left that we the people in pews have and can do when we see absurdity like this is to laugh and use a little satire. Really all that we the powerless can do is laugh at people like Cardinal Mahoney and let him know that we aren't buying his charade. If you really want to know how I feel, if I were Pope(which I in no way think that I am) I would start having anathema services again like they did long ago and to be honest this video would be exhibit A. My friend and fellow Ohioan, Harmon, questioned the derision of the title of this thread. Derision is mild compared to what should be done. And frankly what should be done is mild to what would have happened 500 years ago to this group. Now before people start freaking out, I am not advocating doing what they would have done 500 years ago, but to put everything in perspective derision is mild.

And that brings us to the point, Cardinal Mahoney and his likes are the ones leaving us, we are not leaving him. When you have barefoot women in pagan toga outfits holding the Gospel on the altar and doing twirls with it and people clapping after each 'number' like they are at a Broadway show, that is not mass or Catholic. If this is the ceremony that Mahoney and his dancing maidens want to have then they should officially leave the Church and form there own and stop embarrassing the name of the Catholic Church. If they won't do it on there own then his Holiness Benedict needs to send them packing.

mc