www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Are we in union even with these people?

Hi Markos,

Christ is risen!

It would depend on what you mean by "defective." Is it outright heretical? I'd say not.

Let's just say that there are lots of "loopholes" in the CSL document-- ambiguities that were purposely put in to allow for this sort of blasphemy. The main author of this document-- and of the novus ordo Mass-- was almost certainly a Freemason. I believe that many bishops and members of the Roman Curia are also.

And yes, I would also say that the people and the thought process behind the CSL were not well-intentioned.

God bless,

Karen

Michael,

I'm advocating to do what they did 500 years ago!!!

What's that-- calling a Second Council of Trent?

God bless,

Karen

Thank you, Michael !


Go Buckeyes !


There I respectfully disagree with you. Firm discipline? Yes. Stopping this kind of nonsense, even by relieving the perpetrators from their responsibilites (and putting in people who will get the job done)? OK, if that is what it takes. But derision? No. There but for the grace of God go I. We need to hate the sin (and stop it from happening again) but love the sinner.


I agree with that.

-- John

The question is why aren't the bishops correcting their brothers? That includes the Eastern bishops. I asked this once in another thread, but there was no response. Why are the bishops not brave enough to admonish their brother bishops when they see error? This includes the harshness which Bishop Pataki used on his parishoners, the lunacy within Cardinal Mahoney's diocese, the ignoring of the Pope's call to return to Tradition by many Eastern Churches; why are the Bishops not standing up for truth, instead sheepishly complacent together as mafia-types? Most certainly, if they did have the courage to admonish one another as the Early Church, many of the abuses would have never occured.

From what I understand the issues in the LA-LA Land of the LA Archdiocese are far more systemic than a single aberrant liturgy. You know the Scripture -"By their fruits ye shall know them..."? No doubt the hearty helping of fruits and nuts on full display in this video illustrate the spiritual condition of the local ecclesia.

A family is formed according to the spirit of its head. We see what happens when a weak father is put in charge. This is certainly a deep cultural issue, and we should pray for the spiritually dysfunctional family of LA.

As to all of this talk about whether one can remain "in communion" with a church that permits this, let's be clear: no church is perfect. Sinful members abound in the Catholic and Orthodox communions. You can always find broken, weak and absent fathers anywhere. Toying with the idea of leaving the Catholic communion because of the nonsense in LA is to cheapen both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. And what will you do when you encounter weaknesses there or elsewhere? You cannot church hop indefinitely. Ultimately peace is found by being in the center of God's will. Let Him direct you, instead of any feelings of repulsion at the misbehavior of others.

With that said, your feelings of repulsion are shared by many here and elsewhere - including, I would wager, Pope Benedict himself if he has seen this. But the purpose of the Pope's authority is not to be the "uberbishop" and "enforcer" bypassing the authority of local ordinaries when they slip up. Each bishop is accorded a certain amount of autonomy by virtue of the same apostolic succession he shares with the Bishop of Rome. HOWEVER, there are limits and certainly examples of ways in which individual bishops violate their charge. At times, canonical penalties can be applied.

I for one feel very strongly that a certain bishop in Florida should be deposed for his role in the Terri Schiavo murder, as well as adding insult to injury in permitting the (non-canonical) marriage of Michael after he directly contributed to the state-sponsored, court-ordered murder of his wife. That's ok, though. Levada and the CDF have the files on him. We shall see where things go. And yes, I am "in communion" with this man, and pray for him on occasion. Perhaps I should do it more often.

If you read the history of the church, you will find corrupt and weak bishops always live and operate in the midst of the vituous and saintly ones. The Gospel demonstrates this pattern with Judas as one of the twelve. God alone will judge these men (and us!) for what they have done.

It is interesting to note that the laity have a critical role in the ordination of our clergy. We produce the candidates and give our consent - Axios! Axios! Axios! and intone the "Lord have mercy's" as the Holy Spirit empowers the ordained to serve the community. Our responsibility vis-a-vis the ordained does not end after the ceremonies, however. We should always keep them in our prayers. Although we rightly see them as our shepherds, we should also see them as our brothers in the Lord - a member of Christ's flock. Sometimes even the lead sheep goes astray and we need to send Jesus after him so that he can be reclaimed.

I would wager that if Cardinal Mahoney had been surrounded by laity who supported and prayed for him to be a faithful, orthodox shepherd the outcome could have been different for LA LA Land.

My two cents...

Good Grief: - I watched the entire video - even though I didn't want to. It's like driving by a bad accident you know you should continue to move but you feel compelled to watch. This is just so wrong in so many ways. I can't begin to number the negative thoughts that went thru my mind. It's as if some flower child (60's) acting troup awry. The only 1/2 decent comment I can make it - no on 2nd thought I don't have one.
Please God give them another chance.

To me the snag is that they all were in Seminary about the same time - the hippy 70s when they thought they could do as they wished.

And with that we got a whole group of Worshippers who thought that it was all wonderful and modern and sadly ,very very up to date.

These were the folk that then trained other Priests in RC Seminaries - so the abuses were carried on by another generation.

They can't see that what they are doing is wrong

And sadly this will continue for some years to come - it's the young Priests coming out of Seminary now who are the ones that can change things in the future. The future of the RC Church is in their hands

"And with that we got a whole group of Worshippers who thought that it was all wonderful and modern and sadly ,very very 'up to date'."

Well that was Pope John XXIII's reason for calling the Council.

Agreed - but I'll bet he did not envisage the things that would come

In fact, if you read the Liturgy he revised (the 1962 Missal) you get a sense for how it compares to the Pauline Ordo. John XXIII should not be blamed for the mess. If the Latins had stuck with his revisions, things might have been different!

Gordo

Karen,

For me, it's enough that the novus ordo form of the Mass was promulgated by an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church and all the popes since then. Pope John Paul the Great celebrated Mass in the novus ordo form. So too has Pope Benedict XVI. The novus ordo is the norm for Divine Liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church. The problem is not the novus ordo; the problem is that the novus ordo isn't being followed by some of the priests and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church.

In my experience, and in the experience of others I know, most Masses are not like that blasphemy.

I agree, emphatically.

The solution to this problem, however, is for Latin Rite priests and bishops to practice the virtue of obedience and to celebrate the novus ordo Mass according to the rubrics, including (especially) the G.I.R.M. (General Instructions to the Roman Missal). It's supposed to be the Catholic Church, not the do-it-yourself church, and I wish the priests and bishops who are erring would repent and do what they have sworn to do.

-- John

I meant putting the "Smackdown" on heretics! (www.ratzingerfanclub.com [ratzingerfanclub.com])

Hi John,


For me, it's enough that the novus ordo form of the Mass was promulgated by an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church and all the popes since then.

But without the approval of most of the bishops. The NO isn't invalid, nor officially heretical, but it IS inferior.

Pope John Paul the Great celebrated Mass in the novus ordo form. So too has Pope Benedict XVI.

With all due respect, what is that supposed to show? Every pope who reigned before Paul V-- that's like 1500 years of popes-- didn't.

The novus ordo is the norm for Divine Liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church. The problem is not the novus ordo; the problem is that the novus ordo isn't being followed by some of the priests and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church.

I would disagree that the novus ordo isn't a problem-- although it's a symptom of a larger problem that started centuries before the 1960's. I would say that there is something about the novus ordo Mass that gives rise to liturgical abuses. You didn't have these circus masses with the Mass of Pius X.

And it's true that not all RC Masses are like this... [/qb][/QUOTE]In my experience, and in the experience of others I know, most Masses are not like that blasphemy.

No, that mass was unusually bad. But in my experience, most novus ordo Masses are riddled with all sorts of liturgical abuses-- some even sanctioned by the Church.

The solution to this problem, however, is for Latin Rite priests and bishops to practice the virtue of obedience and to celebrate the novus ordo Mass according to the rubrics, including (especially) the G.I.R.M. (General Instructions to the Roman Missal). It's supposed to be the Catholic Church, not the do-it-yourself church, and I wish the priests and bishops who are erring would repent and do what they have sworn to do.

The problem is, however, the seeds of dissent and ever-evolving liturgy are planted into the novus ordo Mass itself-- as well as the CSL-- and not by accident; it's a "do-it-yourself" liturgy. And I too wish the clergy would be faithful.

Like I said, though, it doesn't make me feel any better that this stupidity to this degree is uncommon... it shouldn't be allowed to be going on at all. And the fact that it is should disturb us.

God bless,

Karen

Another contributing factor is that there are now 1,300,000,000+ Catholics now and it is hard to keep tabs on them all. Not only that but Catholicism is the largest "denomination" in America by far.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_orthodox.html

And with Orthodox Christians barely comprising one half of one percent of the population of the United States, I'd say that it would be easier to find a more homogenous worship in smaller numbers.

As I've said before, Cardinal Mahoney would be deposed, defrocked, and excommunicated if I were Pope! And as many have said, "That's why you're not!!!"