www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Presbyterians changing Father, Son, & Holy Spirit

OK - the Presbyterians U.S.A., are changing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...

Options to the Trinity "taken" from Scripture are like...
"Rock, Redeemer, Friend,"
"Mother, Child and Womb"
"Lover, Beloved, Love"
"Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"
"King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love."

http://www.wnbc.com/family/9393768/detail.html

So... baptisms in the Presbyterian "church" are likely going to be invalid now.

I guess we can no longer take it for granted that converts to Catholicism or Orthodoxy from Protestantism were baptized validly...

God bless,

Karen

So silly.

The PCUSA has changed nothing, yet. The liberals are trying to introduce this nonsense and the conservatives are resisting. Pray for our Presbyterian brothers and sisters as they fight this whacko agenda. Also remember, we have whackos in our own ranks. Not long ago a bunch of babies had to be rebaptized in Australia because a Catholic priest was doing the same thing.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Hi Alice!

Why are these people even Christian? Why do people insist on trying to "change" the Church instead of simply LEAVING and going wherever their [nutty] beliefs are held?

God bless,

Karen

Dear Karen,

You asked:

I say the evil one can do more damage within an established organization. Is it not more damaging and demoralizing to undergo a schism? I am certain 'he' chuckles with glee watching mankind [humankind? see, here is another example of the evil one in our midst] try to rip apart Christ's one true Church.

May the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit reign over us forever and guide all believers back to the true faith.

Amin

In Christ,

Michael

You're right, Michael... the evil one's campaign to destroy the Church has become an "inside job." He figured out that trying to attack theh Church from the outside wasn't working.

and re: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, don't say that, it's too patriarchial. Instead we shall say, "The Lion, the Tiger, and the Bear (oh, my!)" :p

God bless,

Karen

Karen, as I have stated before, the new trinity is I, myself, and me.

I hope that this kind of nonsense that we see in "Mainline" Protestantism will drive them back to real Churches with True Apostolic Succession. As we have seen, many Episcopalians and Anglicans are threatening to do so after Gene Robinson was "consecrated" a "Bishop."

How true, unfortunately. Self-worship.

God bless,

Karen

Didn't the PCA separate from and leave the UP at one point because they were straying to far, or is it the other way around?

Dear Pani you said:

I say:

Look, if they are going to change anything, then it should be "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier" because it really is more explanatory. The other one's are rediculous. :rolleyes:

I recall a Muslim that converted to Christianity saying that the Muslims cannot understand the concept of a Son, and believe that we worship more than one God. He said that Jesus must be explained as basically the 'Word' of God. So maybe then it should be 'Creator, Word, Sanctifier' or 'Creator, Word, Comforter'.

Hey, I better tell the Presbyterians that!

Zenovia

BREAKING NEWS:

Presbyterians Make Room for Gay Clergy

By David E. Anderson
Religion News Service

Birmingham, Ala., June 20--The nation's largest Presbyterian denomination, in a seismic shift on the role of gays and lesbians in the church, voted on Tuesday to allow local and regional bodies to ordain gays to the church's ministries.

After nearly three hours of debate, delegates voted 298 to 221 to approve a complex proposal that allows local congregations and regional bodies known as presbyteries to bypass the church's current ban on "self-avowed practicing" gay clergy.

Current rules from 1996 that require "fidelity in marriage ... and chastity in singleness" will remain on the books, but local bodies can now allow exceptions to those standards if they wish.
Those exceptions will still be subject to review by higher bodies.

The proposal came from a blue-ribbon task force that has spent four years studying the issue.

"This is not an `anything goes' proposal," said the Rev. Blair Monie, chairman of the committee that brought the proposal. Rather, he said, it was a way to hold the church together by relying on some of its oldest practices.

The Rev. Stacy Johnson, a member of the task force, said the report was "not about sexuality but about the church" and how it moves forward in the midst of conflict.

Opponents, meanwhile, said the new policy "changes everything" in the life of the church and was a "transitional point" on the march toward tossing out all current prohibitions on gay clergy.

The 2.3 million-member church has been debating the issue for nearly 30 years. This time, the debate was intense but polite and restrained -- and sometimes emotional.

"I am against homosexual ordination," said former moderator Marj Carpenter, her voice breaking. But she said she nevertheless supported the proposal. "I'm willing to compromise if it will get us back to being the church. I love this church, but please, let us get on."

The so-called "third way" proposal, by the 20-member Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity of the Church, revolves around a distinction between "standards" and "essentials." It would allow individuals who cannot abide by the standards to be ordained if local bodies do not find them in violation of the "essentials" required of new clergy.

In addition, the task force's proposal is being offered as a new "authoritative interpretation" of church policy that would immediately go into effect. Unlike previous attempts to rescind the gay clergy ban, this policy will not have to be ratified by the denomination's 173 regional presbyteries.

Opponents argued that it would lead to alienation from sister churches in Africa and Asia and could cause thousands of Korean members to withdraw.

Supporters, however, said the church could no longer exclude gays and lesbians from full participation.

The task force was divided between supporters and opponents of gay ordination, but its proposal to the General Assembly had been adopted unanimously and widely circulated.

Coming into the assembly, the task force proposal had support from prominent church leaders in both the moderate and evangelical wings of the church. However, it was opposed by some supporters of gay ordination, who did not think it went far enough in allowing such ordinations, and opponents of gay clergy, who argued it opened the floodgates for gays in the ministry.

The proposal leaves untouched two key "standards" that bar "self-affirming, practicing homosexuals persons" from ordination and that require candidates for ordination to be faithful in marriage or chaste in singleness.

Two efforts -- one to replace the proposal with a dissenting minority report, and another to refer the proposal to presbyteries for their consideration -- both failed.

I raised this issue with some Protestant friends and they rightly suggested that the whole Church is in a mess, just as Father Deacon has pointed out. My Protestants friends added "Why switch"? Some of my friends have even started some independent movements which seek to follow the "true" path.

CDL

It's this kind of pathetic nonsense that makes a strong argument for the validity and desirability of the apostolic Churches.

-- John