www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall My Son's 1st Divine Liturgy

took my 6 year old son to his first Byzantine Divine Liturgy yesterday.

He loved it.

Occasional, we drive past St. Basil's Byzantine(Ruthenian) Catholic Church. My son always points it out as the "Church with the golden dome and the 'tilty' cross"

So the ladies of the house went to our Latin parish while we decided do a daddy\son trip to St. Basil's for Divine Liturgy there this Sunday.

Some of his comments

(after we venerated the Icon on the Tetrapod)
Kieran-"Can I smooch all the Icons"
Me- "No you can't, besides, what would you do with the one on the ceiling"
Kieran-"We could get a ladder"

"The Church smells like ROSES"

"Do they sing EVERYTHING?"

"This is so cooler that our Guardian Angels Church, can we come here every Sunday"


He had some of the antidoron after the Liturgy. When he came home he ran inside to tell DW that he has some of the "Communion Bread".

DW, having no real experience with the East other than knowing that children are welcome at the Cup, though I brought him up for Communion, I got an earful on that one

Brendan,

Now I've made the connection. I still have a childlike approach to my Church. It's good for the soul.

Dan L (Athanasius)

I have known lots of little Children get more out of Byzantine Churches than Roman ones. I even hear them complaining about pews! (Because they can't see anything, they want to see the Holy Table).

G-d bless these kids!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine


PS, has your child already received first communion in the Roman Church? If he has not, then he may not be able to receive communion in any other Churches. One have to follow the discipline of their ritual Church in order for other Churches to honor it. G-d bless.

I have never heard of a Greek-Catholic priest accustomed to communicate children in the first place refusing to communicate the child of Roman Catholic parents. And I wouldn't worry about it, because:
a) there are NO canonical effects of "First Communion", and
b) it is not at all uncommon for a child to participate in more than one "First Communion" one at the school and another at the parish church - or even more than one parish church, depending on the child's family situation.
So don't worry about it.
Incognitus

I used to go out to a country church (Latin) Saturday evenings when I had to report in to work early Sunday morning. At that time, the pastor was almost bedfast and his assistant received permission for me to do ministry as both Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist and Lector: the parish had none of the former and few of the latter.

One evening I took my six-year-old son along because of some situation that now escapes me.

Nick had been demanding that he be allowed to receive the Eucharist and showed that he was far along in his understanding. But our own pastor said he must wait two more years and receive with his classmates.

That particular evening, I was asked to minister in both capacities. I told the priest that I couldn't leave my son alone in a pew, but he told me Nick could don a cassock and surplice and he (the priest) would direct him around.

Imagine my surprise when we got back into the sacristy and Nick announced that he'd finally gotten what he'd wanted for so long: he'd made his "first communion." He said he just got into line behind the other boys, put a paten under his chin, and received. The priest apologized all over the place, but I was inwardly thrilled.

When we got home, however, mother was about as upset as anyone could be because she cherished this custom thing about First Communion with little boys in white ties and little girls in white veils.

IMHO, if a child understands, let him receive. Personally, I cherish the Byzantine custom of allowing all those who are baptized and chrismated to come to meet the Lord.

May He absorb Himself into every fiber of the being of every person who approaches with the fear of God, with faith, and with love. Then, let His faithful people go into the world to be His Eyes to seek out, His Ears to listen, His Voice to encourage and pray, His Hands to work, His Arms to embrace, and His Legs to take them wherever He may need His Presence to be.

BOB

Bob, interestingly enough, the pastor at the RC church where I play gave a sermon yesterday, about how the process of baptism, then first communion, then confirmation is totally out of order. He said that when Pius X allowed children to receive communion at an earlier age, he didn't change the confirmation age, but should have. I don't know about any of that, but it does seem things in the RC are out of sequence.

ByzanTN,

This is precisely what I've read as well. There seems to have been a reason to set the age later for confirmation in order to combat the Calvinist and Lutheran heresies at the time but when they did it they messed up the sequencing. Your alert notice of this is right on target. I hope they revisit this issue seriously and not only get the right sequence but stop making human understanding a prerequisite to inclusion in the kingdom of God. Or to put it into philosophical terms...enough with the nominalism. Let's return to realism.

Dan L

I just wanted to share the Episcopal way of doing things re: communion.

We consider the sacrament of Baptism to be full entry into the church community and encourage the parents to allow the child to receive either wine or a small piece of bread (or like in the Byzantine Rite --- a spoon with a little of each). Then, at a date when the person becomes of age and understands fully the implications of the faith, he/she is confirmed by a bishop (BTW, if the bishop is the one doing the confirmation and anoints with the holy oil, that child is consider both baptized and confirmed.

When I made the transition into the Episcopal Church I had to struggle with this but I now understand and encourage the practice of communicating infants. I was assigned as Deacon in charge of a small rural congregation right out of seminary and then ordained to the presbyterate six months later. Within a week or two of being ordained to the presebyterate, I was asked to baptize a child. The parents were very receptive to the child's receiving and all went well. After that I continued to use the spoon until one day (I do not remember how long it was), the child came to the altar rail and put out his hands and said: "I want Jesus". That experience has been repeated many times.

I'm not sure how every one else does this, but it works for me.

Thanks for hearing me out.


Fr. Mike

byzanTN and Dan L:

I researched this rather interesting historical sequence some 35+ years ago. I had some personal interest since my great-grandmother had aroused my curiosity when I had made my First Communion. At the time, she told me that her own First Communion had come only after her Confirmation because that was the requirement at that time--1888.

Pope St. Pius X wanted to allow the grace that is to be had by Eucharistic Communion to be available to young people when they reached the age of reason--age 7. It is my understanding that he felt older young people may already have developed habits and life attitudes that might interfere with their Catholic Christian life. I believe that he also wanted to encourage bishops to confirm earlier, but that didn't seem to happen. So Pius gave an indult to Catholics of the Latin Church in 1910 that allows children to be communed prior to confirmation.

As a consequence, I think that this whole area may be part of the reason that we cannot enter into Eucharistic Communion with our Protestant brethren. Communion requires full initiation: first baptism, then confirmation/chrismation, then eucharist. The problem of orders comes into play with confirmation. Another way to look at it is that to admit a person with baptism only, one would have to accept the papal indult allowing for communion without confirmation. But that seems to be a problem since there are no Protestants who would accept that the Pope has the authority to admit or deny the Eucharist to anyone--or to accept any part of his authority at all. (But that is no fault of our brethren--look at the number of Catholics who think that the bishops should not withhold Communion from politicians who vote or work for abortion.)

There have been a number of threads here in the past that have dealt with this apparent inversion of the Apostolic order of sacramental initiation into the Body of Christ.

BOB

Friends,

In 1957, a Latin friend, I know well, received baptism as an infant, Confirmation a few months later, then 1st Holy Commuinon at age 7.

Either our archdiocese was disobedient to Rome or the local Archbishop was dispensed to allow Confirmation before 1st Communion.

The practice of Confirming infants has since ceased in my archdiocese.

Theophan mentioned that in 1888 his great-granmother received Confirmation before 1st Communion. Does anyone know more about the sequence of the Sacraments of initiation as practiced by the Latin Church?

I wish my children could have been Confirmed as infants. My 19 year old son refuses to be confirmed.

Christ is our peace.

Paul

Paul,

He can run but he can't hide. Have you read the poem "The Hound of Heaven"? I don't know the authors background but I do love that poem. If you son has been baptized God has a claim on him. He will find it harder and harder to escape God. I believe this.

Keep praying for him.

Dan L

Dan,

Thank you for the encouragement. English poet Francis Thompson is the author of "The Hound of Heaven."

Yes, I have an Augustine on my hands. My wife and I are his St. Monica (Pray for us).

The love of God and the prayers of the Holy Mother of God will bring a prodigal son home.

We continue to pray for David.

Paul

I have something to share. My First Communion class here in California in the early 80's was made up partly of Mexican immigrants (the rest of us were often children of Mexican immigrants).

I remember many of my classmates born south of the border had already been confirmed in Mexico as infants, despite not having received First Communion. Those of us born and raised here expected to wait 'till after First Communion.

We were all also classmates at the local public school (by then there was no parochial school in this barrio) and this was common knowledge in my peer group.

My mom says that growing up, whenever the bishop would visit her very tiny town in the mountains, he would administer confirmation to whomever needed it, including infants.

My dad told me my oldest brother was confirmed at about 1 or 2 at the Cathedral in Mexico City! When I asked when he was confirmed, he told me he couldn't remember but it must have been after his baptism.

So I don't really know how this is decided, but it seems like there is more leeway for this in some places, even within the past 30 years.

Paromer, it wouldn't surprise me if your Archdiocese had dispensation for early confirmations at one time, especially considering the historic ties to Mexico.

The Mexican pattern, by choice or necessity, is much closer to the ancient Church than is the pattern followed in the USA.

Dan L

Hopefully you can clear up a confusion of mine on this topic. I notice when I go to various Eastern Catholic Churches, the bulletin will state that Catholics (and Orthodox) who have been baptized and chrismated can come forward for communion. Where does this leave baptized (Latin) Catholic children who have not yet been confirmed (but perhaps have received 1st communion)? It wouldn't seem that they should be denied, but why then does it state that one should be "baptized and chrismated"?