www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Way of the Pilgrim

they deny intrinsic truths and therefore are heretics.

Don't you mean you are here to compromise the Truth? By "you" I am reffering to this forum not to any poster in particular.

Joe Zollars

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Johanam ]

Dear Joe,

I hope I don't compromise the Truth that is Christ.

If I do, I shall have to render an account of it to Him directly when I leave this world.

I'm happy, though, that I will be judged by God, and not by my mother or you for that matter .

To deny basic truths, does indeed make one a heretic.

But that only applies if one recognizes what one denies as truths in the first place.

In the old days, "invincible ignorance" was a term that applied even to Catholics who denied certain things.

But usually a heretic is a Catholic who falls into error and deviates from the teaching of the Church on purpose and then refuses to repent.

Someone born in Protestantism and raised as such is not a heretic.

That IS the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

Alex

No those born in Protestantism are not heretics, but they believe in heresy.

Joe Zollars

Dear Joe,

Objectively yes, subjectively - no and they cannot be charged with any moral guilt with respect to heresy.

Ultimately, to carry this thing further, the Orthodox are also "heretics" in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church because they too deny certain religious doctrines the RC Church maintains as normative for all - or so Fr. John Hardon wrote.

Alex

Isn't a heretic someone who subscribes to heresy? Were the second generation Arians not heretics because they were born into it? Protestants hold beliefs that were once condemned as heresy. They deny basic Truths that would have been unheard of even among Arians and Monophysites, ie: denial of true presence, denial of the intercession of saints, denial of Church autjority, denial of the Councils(except when the Council agrees with their man-made doctrine). Protestantism is the most wide spread, and most damaging heresy in history.

My mother is Methodist by the way; so I harbor no ill will towards Protestants, just their doctrine.


Columcille

P.S I held these views as a Catholic as well. This doesn't spring from my recent decision to become Orthodox.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Columcille ]

Joe,

do calm down - now go away in a wee corner - count to 10 , have a good scream.

Now enjoy the weekend

Angela

Dear Columcille,

It's nice to see you haven't discarded your Catholic attitudes COMPLETELY after your decision to become Orthodox!

Well, no, those BORN into Arianism were not considered "heretics" although the Arian theology certainly was.

If a Catholic became an Arian, that was another thing altogether.

The FACT that the Church never considered born Arians heretics is shown quite demonstrably by the inclusion into the universal Calendar of Arian saints following the demise of Arianism.

St Nicetas the Goth, St Sabas the Goth, and others were Arians. Nicetas, a popular saint in the Eastern Church, was an Arian priest, ordained by the Arian bishop Ulfilas who composed an Arian creed.

But his and others' martyrdom for Christ were considered sufficient "make-up" for their defective orthodoxy.

There are many saints in the calendar who failed in their orthodoxy and subscribed formally to heresy - see Holweck's Dictionary of Saints in his Forward where he discusses a number of these.

St Artemius, the "Dux Augustalis" of Egypt, was martyred in the act of destroying a pagan temple there.

The fact is that he was, at the same time, destroying Catholic churches, as he was an Arian.

His defect in his orthodoxy was overlooked however . . .

When the Georgian Church became one with Chalcedonian Orthodoxy, its saints, attacked as heretics by Greek Orthodox theologians, remained in its calendar such as St David of Garesja, called by the Greeks that "putrefaction from Georgia."

The same is true for the Assyrians when they came into communion with Rome and when a part of their Church came into communion with Moscow.

In all cases, only the originators of the heresies involved, Arius, Nestorius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Diodore of Tarsus, were taken out of the Calendar.

All the other Arian, Nestorian, Miaphysite saints remained - don't take my word for it.

As for the mainsteam Protestants, they NEVER questioned the doctrine of the Trinity and of Christ, the two main doctrines of Christianity, as did the Arians et al.

Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox Churches would agree with you here, Big Guy!

Alex

Alex,

I had a question about this "invincible ignorance" you commented on.

Your post could be taken in a way I am sure you didn't mean it to be.

That since they don't know the "basic truths" then we should teach them because then if they deny them they are damned.

Here is a relavant paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

1793. "If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience."

I take this to mean that we are called to help correct the "invincible ignorance" of others.


David

Dear David

That's what I'm trying to do right now!

Alex

for ya'lls ease of mobility I have deleted most of the Posts ever composed by me at this heretical forum.

Joe Zollars

Dear Joe,

Now that was just uncalled for, Johanam!

Only the Church can formally declare someone heretical.

You haven't made your case for this as yet.

It is a sin to be that unkind.

Sorry, but I ask the Moderator to intervene here to make a ruling on this.

Joe, please calm down and take Angela's advice.

Alex

Joe,

First, I wish you well on your spiritual journey.

Second, since you have made a formal accusation of heresy against myself, the moderators of this Forum and many of the participants of this community, you need to either present specific, detailed and comprehensive proofs or recant your accusations.

Third, you should take the time to study what the Church teaches about our brothers and sisters in the Protestant Churches. The Church has been very careful to nuance a difference between those who freely choose to embrace a heresy and those who were born into a heretical Church. The Church purposely makes this distinction for demonstrable purposes. Either way, only a bishop has the authority to pronounce an individual to be a heretic.

Always keep in mind that the first person we are to convert to Christ is ourself. We are to witness to others primarily through how we live our faith in Christ. The Church provides a good example for us in witnessing to others (including Protestants) by telling us to witness what is true and correct and not to focus on what is wrong.

I admire your zeal in desiring to bring all people into the Church. From my vantage point it appears that your zeal is not tempered with discipline. I highly recommend finding yourself a good spiritual father and submitting to his direction so that all of your future work may be in cooperation with that of the Church.

Prayers and best wishes,
Admin

I'd like to come in a side door on the original question of this thread: the book "The Way of the Pilgrim:--

How can we deepen in our own faith and spirituality our own Byzantine Catholic people and/or our own folks of the 21 Eastern Catholic Churches?

Many, but of course, not all, of our parishes have parishioners who come for Liturgy and do not understand our Eastern perspective and/or we are one of 21 Churches in communion with Rome and/or do not understand and/or do not want to restore our traditions. How can we educate them?

Maybe buy bulk copies of books easy to read like "The Way of the Pilgrim," and/or other suggested books, like ________?????

Please excuse my side door approach, but I want to take advantage of this opportunity to pick your brains.

And by the way, it is fun to type and/or!!!!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Thank you in advance for your kind suggestions!

Dear Monastic Beginner,

Certainly, the great value of the Way of the Pilgrim is that it is a popular, readable way of teaching about the need for unceasing prayer and how to participate in it in the Name of Jesus Christ.

It lays bare the constant teaching of the Church for the need to dedicate our whole lives to prayer, that prayer precedes every good action and inspires every virtue.

Some of the specific sections in the Way have been reprinted elsewhere, such as the preparation for Confession etc.

The Paulist Press publication of the Way of the Pilgrim is invaluable in that it has a great introduction by a Russian scholar who shows, quite convincingly, that the author of that book was an Orthodox priest, and not a layman, a Fr. Arsenius Troye-something.

This priest was moved around Ukraine and Russia quite a bit - and thus the background of the Pilgrim's travels.

The author compares the style of the Way to that of Fr. Arsenius' other spiritual books (all of which were unsigned by him) and also compares the episodes in the life of the Pilgrim with the biography of Fr. Arsenius himself.

The crisis in the Church is always rooted in a crisis of prayer, as the Way shows.

And unceasing prayer Is the Way!

Alex

Dear amonasticbeginner:

Additional side door inquiry: I thought the Eastern Catholic sui juris Churches number 22?

Am I adding more?


AmdG