www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall UAOC-Sobornopravna

Dear ukrpatr:

I'm not sure if your screen name refers to soley to your support for a Ukrainian patriarchate or if you yourself are a hopeful candidate. All in all, I've agreed with some of your previous posts, but the comments here are neither insightful or accurate. Rather, they seem snidish and caddy at best. It would benefit you to check your "source" that you claim is "insightful" and confirm with substantiation, the various "information" that he is passing out. Many have certain agendas to fulfill and will say and spread falsities in order to discredit what they see as threats or opposition.

In addition, your comments on some other issues here have not been necessarily complementary to the Ukrainian Church but rather emphasize the negativity and intrigue that some people thrive on in the church. Rather than focus on what vestments a certain bishop may be wearing or will wear in the future, we should concentrate on the "fruits" of a particular church's ministry. As Fr. Mark so poignantly remarks, "By their fruits you shall know them."

I too, like many of us, have various "sources" throughout the Ukrainian Church, both Orthodox and Greek Catholic as well as personal contact. Some of these are clergy of the UAOC - Sobornopravna whom I respect. While, as many of you know, I normally do not post on topics of a "political" or derogatory nature, such as this one, the extreme inaccuracies expressed, as well as disregard for the general demeanor that our Administrator requests us to uphold, compel me to do so in this instance.

You quote your "source" as saying that Metropolitan Stephan of the UAOC-Sobornopravna left the Kyiv Patriarchate (UOC-KP) because he was not chosen to be a bishop by Patriarch Filaret. My own knowledge of the situation is actually quite the opposite, that His Beatitude was indeed elected bishop during a synod of the UOC-KP in 1995 or 96, but due to the political ambitions of others in the US, was given grief over the issue. Later, Metropolitan Vasyl Bodnarchuk of Ternopil (who at the time was the authorized acting patriarch of the UAOC in Ukraine, during a period when Patriarch Dymitry was inactive - this is documented by history) issued real documents (available on the uaoc.org website), authorizing Metropolitan Stephan to establish the UAOC in North & South America in the position of bishop. The authenticity of this hramota has never been questioned, that I am aware of. Subsequent to this, Metropolitan Stephan received episcopal ordination in the United States, in fulfillment of the hramota of Metropolitan Bodnarchuk. The edict of the Ternopil Metropolitan was confirmed and strengthened by an election here in the US during a Sobor of the UAOC of North & South America, in 1998. So, given these two distinct confirmations of his episcopal role, Metropolitan Stephan can hardly be considered a "self proclaimed" bishop, as you allege. The accusation that Metropolitan Alexis of New York was given a "bribe" in order to consecrate Metropolitan Stephan is completely untrue as well as liable. It is the first time that I ever heard that particular falsity, so your "source" had better check his information very carefully. In fact, the consecrations by Metropolitan Alexis, only serve to strengthen this particular branch of the church's ties to historical Ukrainian Orthodoxy, through the episcopate of Metropolitan Ohijchuk (consecrated in May, 1942, along with most other Ukrainian bishops who later found themselves in the Diaspora. Those who remained in Ukraine met their fate in the gulags and death camps of the Soviet regime.)

Your information about Metropolitan Moisei of Ukraine is equally dubious. While he was a part of the UOC-KP and also a priest of S. Boundbrook in the US, it would be good to have concrete evidence about alleged "revelations from God" that you claim the Metropolitan says he received, before compromising yourself by cooperating in the spreading of such rumors. It is true that the church in general and the Ukrainian Church in particular has long been the victim of much gossip, half truths and falsities which some of our people like to spread with complete disregard for both the Christian spirit and the legal ramifications of libelous or slanderous rumor-spreading. I am surprised that you would lower yourself to this level of "church chat" and gossip, especially on a public forum.

The standing policy of the Byzantine Forum is that respect be shown for hierarchs of all denominations and jurisdictions, regardless of their official status or the opinions of some. You have violated this policy in the post we are discussing and perhaps even in other comments made about bishops and clergy. I would suggest that the Administrator issue a warning about the proper etiquette required on our forum.

You further state that: "Overall this church is very strange and their claimed lineage from the old Sobornopravna church is in question. The true Sobornopravna church under Met. Ojijchuk converted to the Kyiv Patriarchate when it was established."

This is obviously and incredibly inaccurate, given the fact that Metropolitan Alexis of New York, the rightful successor to Metropolitan Andrei Prazky, who in turn was the successor to Metropolitan Hryhorij Ohijchuk, (of which there is documented proof as well) is not, nor ever has been a member of the UOC-KP of Patriarch Filaret. Just because several bishops once associated with Metropolitan Hryhorij did in fact join the UOC-KP when it was established in the US, does not mean that the "true Sobornopravna church" "converted" to the Kyiv Patriarchate, as you claim or that the church ceased to exist. To my knowledge, while Bishop Alexander Bukovitz of Detroit is still a member of the UOC-KP, the bishops in Texas, who were consecrated by Metropolitan Hryhorij are not at the present time, members of the synod of Patriarch Filaret. Although these bishops were or are part of the UOC-KP does not automatically mean that the UAOC Sobornopravna was dissolved into the Kyiv Patriarchate, which in fact, it was not.

For the record, after the Hramota of Metropolitan Vasyl Bodnarchuk, Metropolitan Stephan of the UAOC of North & South America entered into communion with Metropolitan Alexis, successor to Metropolitan Hryhorij, thus bringing the two jurisdictions into union with each other. The two Metropolitans (Alexis and Stephan) continue to work closely together and the Sobornopravna church has greatly expanded during the late 1990s up to the present day.

You state: "BE CAREFULL WHeN DEALING WITH THIS CHURCH. IT IS "Fishy". I HEARD MANY STRANGE STORIES ABOUT THEM ALSO.'

This is complete hearsay and at the level of petty gossip. It is disappointing that you would resort to this level, unless there is a planned agenda that we are unaware of. The church is plagued with many "strange stories" about numerous clergy and hierarchy and perhaps, just perhaps, there are strange and "fishy" stories circulating about even yourself and those whom you claim as "sources" that are very "insightful." We cannot either as Christians or as responsible adults place trust in every rumor or story that comes from the mouths of those who feel they have all the answers. I will offer to you your own advice, which is to "Be careful when dealing with church gossip." It is often misguided and mixed-up and can reflect poorly on those who circulate it.

One of your recent posts stated that:

"Don't think that everything is fine and dandy with the Roman Catholics in Ukraine, we have as many problems with them as we do with The Russian Orthodox. By the way, it sucks that we can celebrate a liturgy with non-Ukrainians of a different Rite but cannot celebrate with our own brother of the same tradition!"

The same can be said of the situation with your friends in South Boundbrook who can concelebrate with members of the Russian Orthodox Church but not with those belonging to churches that are indigenously, firmly and dedicatedly Ukrainian in identity and tradition, including the UAOC, UAOC-Sobornopravna, UOC-KP and of course, the UGCC. Also, please refrain from using words such as "sucks" on this forum. It does not correspond with good manners or a Christian attitude.

Elsewhere you mention:

Also, Patriarch Josyf gave us a true vision of an independent church. . . . Despite all that, I have to admit that Moscow's liturgics are AWESOME. I wish we were as strong in liturgical tradition!

If Patriarch Josyp, whom you seem to admire, stood for an independent Ukrainian church, it is perplexing that you would place the liturgical tradition of the Muscovite Church over and above our own Ukrainian/Ruthenian recension, practices and traditions, many of which pre-date anything that later became standard Russian liturgy. While I will agree that the Russian liturgy can be beautiful in its own way, it is too bad that you feel that our Ukrainian liturgical tradition is not as strong or as "awesome" as that of Moscow. I think many Ukrainians, myself included would beg to differ with this estimation.

I assume that you are rather young compared to others here, since you state that your are interested in the diaconate, but must first finish college. I could be wrong, but if this is the case, I would advise that you allow your spiritual and ecclesiastical life to mature before giving serious consideration to future ordained ministry. Life is a learning experience for all of us, from birth to the grave. During my years as a priest and also during the time of my formation, I have discovered that the things we consider to be of utmost concern and importance at an earlier age (such as vestment style, the legalistic correctness of divine services and adherence to canons and liturgical discipline, proper or improper iconography, the strict observance of this or that rule or typik, politics between jurisdictions and churches, etc. etc) take a back seat to matters of "ultimate importance" as we mature through age and experience. These things teach us that it is Christ, His gospel teaching and of course, faithfulness to the true spirit of our traditions that matter the most and which will bear the most fruit in our ministries and interactions with God's people who come to us for spiritual care. Let your conscience be your guide, and also give serious thought to what is the will of God for your future and that of those you care about. One thing is certain, placing stock in gossip, rumors and false information will not be helpful to you either as a credible individual or a potential minister of God's church.

To our other forum participants in this topic, the so-called "Western Orthodox Church" or "Orthodox-Catholic Fraternity" of Bishop Kallistos of France is not a part of the UAOC. It is true that they were associated with the church for a period of time, but have taken on a decidedly western approach to liturgy and ecclesiology and as Fr. Mark mentions, have consecrated a large amount of bishops in recent months, in order to strengthen their own synod, so as not to have to rely on obedience to the policies of the UAOC. Naturally, much of this did not correspond to the ideals or principles of the UAOC-Sobornopravna or the Ukrainian Church in general and they are no longer a part of the jurisdiction.

Bishops who have a limited or premature understanding of the Orthodox Church are exactly what make what we refer to as "vagante" groups on the fringe of Orthodoxy. One cannot learn the Eastern ethos by reading books or simply desiring conversion in and of itself. It is a way of life that is sustained by regular participation in the liturgical, theological and sacramental life of the Eastern Church. Much of the confusion in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches today stem from those who feel they have a firm grasp on Orthodoxy but who in fact are still in the learning stages. And, to "mix and match" traditions and practices, based on one's limited knowledge of them or personal preferences, give some churches the questionable appearance that they have. Of course, one is free to to what they choose, but that does not mean that they will either gain respect or recognition from the Eastern Christian community as a whole.

I'm sorry if some of my words to "ukrpatr" have been harsh, but the absurdity of many of the alleged "facts," caused me to feel compelled in good conscience to speak out about these issues. My knowledge of the discussion comes from first hand historical study and personal encounters with the hierarchs being discussed and by "ukrpatr," unjustly portrayed. We always have to be careful not to allow hearsay or personal opinion to color our comments in a public venue such as our forum. The other responses on this thread have been all in all, both fair and accurate and have captured the spirit of the situation in the Ukrainian Church both in regard to the various jurisdictions and the history and spirituality that is characteristic of Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholics throughout the years.

God bless you all,

Fr. Joe

Actually, I believe the Moscow Patriarchate will not let their clergy concelebrate with those of the UOC of USA, despite the fact that the latter are under the EP.

Dave

Bless me a sinner, Father Joseph!

Actually, I think the Administrator should consider you for an internet award (once he gets around to creating one! ).

Dave is quite correct and even the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches of Canada and the U.S. who are in communion with New Rome are given the cold shoulder by some.

The issue of canonicity has been a long-standing one with the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches. In fact, there are those who would seem to like to extend it to the Ukrainian Catholic Church as well - asserting the validity of the Sobor of 1946 and proceeding with the canonization of Fr. Gabriel Kostelnyk as a way to liturgically affirm it as well.

The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox movement in this century did much to restore Orthodoxy to the Ukrainian people, beginning with the Ukrainian language in the services.

St Basil Lypkivsky also researched many, many old Ukrainian church traditions that had been, over time, suppressed and restored many back.

Canonicity was always a problem - but it wasn't for lack of trying. World Orthodoxy has, time and again, refused to be Ukrainian Orthodoxy's friend when it needed friends badly.

All of us Ukies are, in fact, "uncanonical" in the eyes of officialdom, Eastern Catholics often included.

When St Basil Lypkivsky was told that his Church wasn't "canonical" in the eyes of Moscow and others, he was said to have replied, "I don't agree. But if they think that, then at least they will keep their distance from us and won't be too eager to swallow us up."

Patriarch Joseph was also on excellent terms with the autocephalists. No wonder they promote the veneration of Met. Andrij and other Eastern Catholics! Isn't that a wonderful sign of true ecumenical, brotherly love when such a thing could happen?

From what I understand, the UOC-KP and the UAOC in Ukraine number over four thousand parishes between them, and then there are the more than three thousand parishes of the UGCC.

The ROC has about nine thousand in all of Ukraine, but only six thousand in all of "Holy Russia."

The ROC has a solid reason for wanting to hang on to Ukraine and its parishes . . .

But even this shall pass!

Thank you, Father, for such a lucid and informed presentation. Your parishioners are lucky to have you indeed!

(If you ever have any trouble with any, give me their addresses and I'll write to tell them a few sincere words, as they say in Ukrainian! )

Alex

The MPs are losing territory for sure. This week at the official site of the UOC-KP,they informed that another parish from the MPs has joined the UOC-KP in the city of Odessa.
Now, isn't that fantastic?
From what I heard it seems that the UGCC has been working as some kind of mentor to bring both Ukie Orthodox churches together (UOC-KP and UAOC).
Lauro

I would like to echo the words of Fr. Joe: The Byzantine Forum welcomes diverse viewpoints on issues providing that they are posted in the spirit of Christian charity. UKIPATR�s post, however, seems to be more unsubstantiated gossip then anything else. We suggest that, in the future, UKIPATR provide appropriate documentation to substantiate any accusations he makes. Negative events in the life of the Church are appropriate for discussion. But discussion of these events should always be from the perspective of building up the Church and not tearing it down.

TO ALL WHO STAND AGAINST ME!

I stand by my answers and am not taking anything I said back. These are not rumors or stories but facts. Now you will ask well, where's the proof?"
First of all, my sources are very accurate and if i revealed them to you you would then reconsider your knowledge of this church. For the saftey of these individuals I willnot mention their names. This is just a topic I couldnt let by. I am not tearing this church down as a community but am warning about there "governing" body of the church. In short all I can tell you is I have two sources, one of whom was close in dealing with the sobornopravna church. Heleft this church after being in the middle of all of the strange things that happened. I appologize that I cannot give you documentation, but we need to realize that most things that seem persfect are not always what they seem to be.

I am not writting anymore on this topic. I will move on because i see that many are angered by my answers.

UKIPATR

PS

the word "sucks" was used in a context of an informal casual conversation.

I am probably very unwise in attempting to make any comment here - after all I am Latin

However my reaction is that if 'ukipatr' has any firm, ie documented -information that would stand scrutiny he should post it here for all to see - it's no good saying, as he has done above,
<<First of all, my sources are very accurate and if i revealed them to you you would then reconsider your knowledge of this church. For the saftey of these individuals I willnot mention their names. >>

This is really very sad - perhaps the Admin could consider as to whether this unfortunate thread could be closed.

Anhelyna

I am sorry I have not posted sooner, as I had intended to make a comment on this much earlier.

If a person like myself reads a posting like the one Ukipatr has posted, I don't see anything much different than the type of information that is usually posted here by all of us, including me.

It is the nature of this medium that things are said colored with opinion. And really nothing is sacred here, although it should be. People have a high regard for this forum, thank you Administrator, the spiritual formations of individuals are influenced by this forum and we DO want to remember that when we post.

How much information is posted with documentation referenced?
VERY LITTLE

How much is posted here that smacks of opinion?
VERY MUCH

How much do we read here that is basically hearsay?
PLENTY

How often are hierarchs, living or dead referred to in a less than respectful manner?
QUITE OFTEN

Not to mention the possibility that what he says may actually be true, whether we want to hear it or not! LEGENDS AND MYTHS ABOUND IN THIS FORUM MASQUERADING AS FACT. From episodes that happened 500 years ago to things that happened 50 years ago and five years ago people are collecting tidbits of info and putting spin on them.

We are all guilty of these things in one way or another, myself included. If it is not proper etiquette for this forum I am sorry we must all try to do better.

UKIPATR, I am sorry you were singled out for this

Michael

Brother Michael,

Your post is quite true, extreme ethnic pride can cloud our minds and effect our responses and thoughts. Most times Eastern/Western is sufficent for Catholics & Orthodox, of course its my humble opinion.

james

Alex, Alex, Alex:

Though I am officially logged off this site I do come and lurk on occassion. And it seems on the few times that I do, you are giving another one of your 'farewell speeches'! What gives? You are like the little boy who always cried wolf.

Anyhow, today I decided to 'lurk' and came across another one of your statements that I just couldn't let go by. So I decided to do an 'log on' then 'log off' just to answer it. Just couldn't let it ride Since I lurk occassionaly can you post the next one under the heading 'Alex's Farewell Post Part XXX?' -

[The ROC has about nine thousand in all of Ukraine, but only six thousand in all of "Holy Russia."]

From the Russian Orthodox Website -

In the Russian Orthodox Church today there are 128 dioceses (for comparison, there were 67 diocese in 1989), 19000 parishes (6893 in 1988), and nearly 480 monasteries (18 in 1980). These figures point vividly to an all-round revival of church life taking place under the primatial leadership of His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia.

Looks like you are off by only about 13,000 parishes!

Anxiously awaiting your next 'farwell' speech!

OrthoMan 'Orthodox In Communion with Orthodoxy'

Dear Orthoman:

Always nice to hear from you.

If you read the ROC page carefully you will note that the 128 diocese include Russia as well as the far and near abroad. Alex accounts for 15000 parishes, in Russia and Ukraine, of the nineteen thousand total. He is not off by 13000 but at most 4 thousand. Moreover, how many are parishes are there in the various non-Russian states of the FSU? How many under the MP in the "far abroad"? Alex's numbers seem close; it is you who have made a gross miscalculation.

djs

Our Lady's slave of love,

Thank you for your comments. All you said is true. Its is kind of difficult to put documents on a forum. Overall, i'm done talking about the sobornopravna church. Everyone can make their own decision as to how to look at this church

Z BOHOM

UKIPATR

Dear Orthoman,

It is always good to see you post here! I used to see you post on another site, but you seem to have logged off for good there!

There are two issues you raise and I wanted to address both.

I sometimes get into a very heated argument over matters that do matter to me. I do take things personally and I am a bit sensitive, just like I am to your post right now.

Sometimes I feel that the words I read about me indicate that I should leave here. And I follow suit by saying I will and then try to stay off this Forum.

But it is difficult to continue to do so when people apologise to you and tell you you've misinterpreted what they intended to say.

I never knew how strongly I really felt about certain issues until they are raised. And I still feel strongly about them.

I'm sorry if my waffling to and fro from here appears like the boy who cried wolf. I like to think that even the hottest of emotions may be cooled in the Christian spirit of forgivenes and love.

I'm still not used to discussing things that are very sacred to me, including cultural identity etc. And the Administrator, during our last outing, did admit he was being "firm" in his convictions, but did clarify what the purpose of his "firmness" was all about.

And at least I DO come back to this Christian, democratic and loving forum, Big Guy.

I don't leave permanently only to come back when I feel the need to snipe at someone, as your post above SEEMS to be about.

As a sociologist, I know that statistics are only as good as how you define them. The numbers reported do not include the neighbouring and now independent states of the former Soviet Union. The Orthodox source I reported from gave those numbers. If another Orthodox source gives other numbers, I am sorry. I don't live in Russia or Ukraine and I would ask the Orthodox (in communion with Orthodoxy) to get their numbers straight.

My only point in reporting them was to show that Russia has a lot to lose in terms of parishes and other material considerations if the MP were to "let the Ukrainian Church go."

Do you deny that Orthodoxy in Ukraine is very strong indeed? I believe it is stronger there than in Russia, but that is just my view. One cannot measure strength in terms of parish numbers alone.

Do you deny the MP has no material interest in hanging on to Ukraine's Orthodox Churches?

Did you not, at one time, admit that Moscow should have ensured a patriarchate for Ukraine - something you said would have avoided the troubles they are experiencing there now?

So I can't really get a handle on where you are coming from, other than to snipe from the protection of a "self-imposed exile."

Why would you wish to be exiled? Who offended you and, if they did, why don't you raise this and demand an apology? Or else take it to the Administrator?

At least when I leave here, ostensibly to cool down, I cease all contact with people at the Forum, except for Angela of Glasgow.

I would invite you to become a regular poster here and raise your gripes which, as I understand, are gripes that even some of your Orthodox (ICWO) colleagues see as being quite strident and ecumenically unacceptable.

I, for one, am not here to try and change your views about "Uniates" or your contempt for those of us who call ourselves "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

I think you always enriched us with your arguments and perspectives on theology as well as on spirituality with your veneration of St Panteleimon and your deep piety.

If you don't like me or others' perspectives, we invite you to come back from exile and speak your mind.

We may argue with you, but we won't ask you to leave or tell you to stuff it.

You are too sincere a Man of God and devoted to Orthodoxy for anyone to demonstrate disrespect to you.

And ultimately, what you think of me and my goings and comings here is something that I deserve.

I love and esteem you as the great Christian you are and I hope you can respond with the same love to come back here regularly to tell Alex he is full of crap or else is just full of BS (Byzantine Silliness).

And if you want to hang me for bad statistics, then you'll just have to get in line behind some of my professors . . .

Alex
Orthodox in communion with Rome

Dear Ukipatr,

I am NOT one of those who didn't like or appreciate your post here.

I just don't know enough about the subject to comment on it.

What you say are things I've heard and read about elsewhere.

The point is, and it is well taken, that a number of our UAOC groups have unfortunately had a bad canonical past and this has led to problems within world Orthodoxy for it - even though world Orthodoxy never was and is not a friend of Ukrainian Orthodoxy period.

Alex

Dear djs,

Thank you for your kindness, dear brother!

It is people like you who make me feel ashamed whenever I do threaten to leave here for good!

Alex