www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Looking for info/help

Hello everyone! I have been reading this board for some time now and am looking for additional resources to learn more about the Eastern Catholic Churches (and the Orthodox Church). By the way, I apologize for any misuse of terminology in any current or future posts. My education on these topics has been woefully lacking and I feel at a decided disadvantage on this board. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for your knowledge of both your churches and your faith.

A little about myself. I am a Latin Rite Catholic (from birth) and have been completely unexposed to the various Eastern Churches. I'm trying to learn more about both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, although I am most interested in learning about the Catholic ones. Can anyone recommed books about either the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches that would be helpfully gaining an understanding of these Churches? I know in the past someone recommend "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Ware to me. I want to learn about the historical aspects of the Churches, including the schism with the Catholic church (for the Orthodox), and also to learn about their theology and the doctrinal difference that exist and continue to contribute to the lack of unity. One aspect that also greatly interests me is if there are any real or perceived differences in theology between the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Also, I am very interested in attending a liturgy in one of the churches. Where I currently live (Duluth, MN), there are no Eastern Catholic Churches but there are a Greek and Serbian Orthodox church. I am pretty sure Minneapolis has a few Eastern Catholic Churches as does Thunder Bay, Ontario. Would the liturgy between an Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Church differ considerably? I understand that I cannot receive communion in an Orthodox Church and that it would not fulfill my Sunday obligation as a Catholic. Is that a correct understanding?

I guess I will end my post here because it is already pretty long. Needless to say, I have a lot to learn and I have a lot of questions about these Churches in Christianity. I know there are what some consider profound or dramatic differences in some of these Churches, but for some reason I can't hope but for a possible union of all Christian churches. For some strange reason, it pains me to know these differences exist. Thank you for all of your help and for allowing me to post on your forum.

Tom

Christ is Risen!

Dear Tom, Father Lawrence Cross wrote a very nice introduction called "Eastern Christianity: the Byzantine Tradition" which discusses both the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Fr. Lawrence is a Russian Catholic priest, and I use this text in an undergraduate class at a Latin college.

Also the U.S. Catholic Bishop's Conference has printed the pamphlet "Eastern Catholics in the USA" which you can get here: http://www.usccbpublishing.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=163

The Knights of Columbus also have a publication written by Bishop Basil (Losten) at http://www.kofc.org/rc/en/publications/cis/publications/veritas/Veritas_CIS342.pdf

FDD

Dear Tom,

I'm currently a member of St. John the Baptist Byzantine Catholic Church in Minneapolis. Our services are at 9AM on Sunday mornings.

http://home.catholicweb.com/johnminneapolis/

If you ever feel like coming down I would love to get some more knowledgabe parishioners together for lunch afterwards to answer any questions you might have. I'm a newbie to the faith myself, from a Lutheran background, my my knowledge is limited.

My email address is nathan@johnsonauctioneering.com.

God Bless!

Nathan - you probably get on well with Fr. Rolf considering your common past.
FDD

Hi, T-Bone !

(Good screen-name !)


God bless you for your interest in the Eastern side of Christianity !


There is a Byzantine Catholic parish in Minneapolis: St. John parish ( http://www.parma.org/minneap.htm ). But, I suspect that it would be quite a trip for you from Duluth (200 miles?).

Visiting the Orthodox churches in Duluth, therefore, would probably be a good start.


The basic Liturgy is pretty much the same in most of the Eastern Catholic Churches and in the Orthodox Church. It is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

You can find the text of it online by searching for "Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom." You can find good discussion of it (from an Eastern Catholic perspective) at http://www.stnicholaschurch.ca/content_pages/ourfaith/art_faith004.FAQ..htm and at http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/index.htm . You can find a good outline of the Divine Liturgy (from an Orthodox perspective) at http://www.synaxis.org/cn/stjohn/Liturgy-outline.html and a good discussion of it starting at http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=90 .


The Orthodox tend to celebrate a longer version of the Divine Liturgy than the Eastern Catholics. The Orthodox (in America) also often include more of the language from the old country into the service along with English. I'm sure your local Orthodox parish priests would be happy to talk more with you about visiting their Liturgy.


You asked if there are any serious differences between Eastern Christian and Western Christian theology? The answer is: yes. They are too many to list (let alone discuss) here. However, you can begin to get an idea of the differences by reading this forum and, especially, by reading some of the introductory books that are available on Eastern Christianity.


A good primer on the Eastern Catholic Churches is Fr. George Appleyard's "Light of the East". It was written specifically for Western (Roman) Catholics by an Eastern Catholic. It can be obtained at http://www.byzantines.net/byzantinepress/theology.htm


The classic introduction to the Orthodox Church is (as you noted) "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Timothy / Kallistos Ware. It is available at Amazon.com and many other places.


The (de facto) catechism for the Eastern Catholic Churches in the U.S. is "Light for Life." It is in three parts (beliefs, practices, spirituality), and it is available at http://www.byzantines.net/byzantinepress/theology.htm .


A good discussion on how Eastern Catholics practice their faith at home is "A Guide for the Domestic Church." It is available at http://www.theobooks.org/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=809 .


Online, there is a substantial discussion of the Eastern Christian Churches (Catholic, Orthodox and pre-Chalcedonian). It is entitled "The Eastern Christian Churches: A Brief Survey." It is not brief, but it is a good survey. It begins at http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-bodypg.aspx?eccpageID=3&IndexView=toc .


These are just a few ideas. I hope they help. There are many resources online and in print about Eastern Christianity. May the Holy Spirit guide you on your discoveries !

-- John

T-Bone,

Welcome!

When I was in Minneapolis up until February of this year, I helped to organize an outreach of St. John's once a month called "St. Michael's Outreach". (My father-in-law and I actually built an inconostasis that we used at the chapel of the Franciscan Brothers of Peace in St. Paul.) The pastor, Father James Atkins, is still very supportive of this effort and comes over from Minneapolis to shepherd it. We normally have anywhere from 12-18 regular attendees, many of whom are Latins such as yourself who want to learn more about the Christian East. (There is usually a formation time that follows the liturgy.) The Divine Liturgy is still on the third Saturday evening of the month, I believe. It might be an option to consider as well, depending on what your schedule allows. Nathan can probably give you the full skinny on the activities of the outreach.

God bless you and your interest in the Christian East!

Gordo

Hi and welcome

Your understanding is correct regarding receiving communion. About your Sunday obligation, I'd say your understanding is correct, especially since you are (like me) a Latin Catholic.

Some Eastern Catholics would probably prefer to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy than a Roman Mass, and consider their obligation fulfilled. I am no authority to comment on that position, though.

Shalom,
Memo

Thanks to everyone for their replies. It looks like there is a great deal more reading about to be placed by my bed. I will be back with more questions as they arise (and they will).

Also, I was wondering if someone could provice some clarification on an earlier question. In the linked booklet from the Knights of Columbus, page 28 says that "A Latin Catholic who attends the Divine Liturgy on Sudnay fulfills the obligation of attending Sunday Mass." It then goes on to say that a Latin Catholic can receive communion at an Eastern Catholic Church but not an Orthodox Church. Is it safe to assume this is an accurate representation?

Finally, thank you for the offer Nathan. I am actually in the cities fairly regularly. I lived there four years ago and still have family members there. I also travel through there to see family in Iowa. Hopefully I can arrange a time to attend a Divine Liturgy.

Thanks again to everyone.

Hi,

Correct. Attending the celebration of the Eucharist according to any Catholic rite fulfills your Sunday Obligation.

Of course, if you are properly disposed to receive Holy Communion, you may do so from any Catholic minister of any rite, for out Churches are in Full Communion with each other.

Unfortunately, that is not true between Catholics and Orthodox Churches, therefore, normally you may not receive Holy Communion from an Orthodox minister (I need to clarify the Catholic Church does not encourage you to receive, but does not object strongly if you do; the objection usually comes from the Orthodox side of the equation) and attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy (even if it is virtually identical to the Eastern Catholic one) does not fulfill your Sunday Obligation (and again, it is not because of any defect in the Orthodox Liturgy, we are not claiming it has any, but because of the lack of Full Communion between the Churches, your attendance to an Orthodox Liturgy would not satisfy the Ecclesial dimension of the Sunday Eucharistic Celebration).

Shalom,
Memo

If there is no Catholic Church that one could attend (of any Rite) then attendance at an Orthodox Church (either Byzantine or Oriental)fullflls the requirements of Sunday Mass/Liturgy.

The Catholic party should not present for communion. 1. Being turned away is embarrasing from the person and the priest. 2. one should be IN communion to receive Communion.

ICXC
NIKA

Hi,

I disagree.

If there is no Catholic Church that one could attend (of any Rite), then one is dispensed from the Sunday Obligation, because the law cannot prescribe the impossible.

Of course, in this situation, attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy might be the best thing you can do with your Sunday morning and, if you ask me, it does Sanctify the Lord's Day in the best possible way.

Shalom,
Memo

The Light of the East: A Guide to Eastern Catholicism for Western Catholics
By Msgr. George Appleyard. Co-published by the Pastoral Ministry Office and NCCL. Saw it here [stjosaphateparchy.org] for $10, but don't know if that is competitive. Should be.

Byzantine Catholic Daily Prayers and Lectionary (and more), and all free here [catholic-forum.com] .

Light For Life
A Byzantine Catholic Catechism in three volumes. Not sure where to get it, but it is readily available. I think it is usually around $30 for the set.

St. Thomas the Apostle church's recommended literature and media page can be seen here [saintthomastheapostle.org] .

Another free resource is Fr. Thomas Loya's weekly radio program Light of the East, which is archived here [byzantinecatholic.com] .

Memeo what are your trying to say?

If there is No Catholic Church in the place where someone is, then they can't attend a Church. This much is common sense.

If there is an Orthodox Church in the place where someone is, then they MAY attend that Church and tick the box that indicates they have been to Church. No one says they HAVE to attend this church.

I suppose it depends on just how keen someone is to attend a church and one that has valid services/liturgies presided over by real clergy. Some will make the effort and go to the neighboring towns to a church and others will dispence themselves of the need to make an effort.

ICXC
NIKA

Hi,

As a Latin Catholic, my Church requires me to attend to the celebration of the Eucharist every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation.

I can also fulfill this requirement by attending the vigil Eucharist the evening before.

I may fulfill this requirement by attending to the celebration of the Eucharist at any Catholic church of any rite.

If this is possible and I fail to do it for no good reason (such as illness or caring for someone who is homebound or being on travel, etc.), I commit sin.

If this is NOT possible, then that very impossibility becomes a good reason and I am dispensed from the obligation.

For Latin Catholics, the possibility to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy has absolutely no bearing in this whole discussion about Sunday Obligation. It is just apples and oranges.

Now, attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy is, in my opinion, a good thing, ALWAYS. Again, with no relationship with Sunday Obligations or with the ability to fulfill them (or lack thereof).

As I said, provided you have taken care of your Sunday Obligation or that it is impossible for you to fulfill it, attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy is, in my opinion, the best thing you can do with your Sunday morning.

I really do not understand your hostility towards my position.

Shalom,
Memo

Tom,

Welcome to the forum. You will find this little slice of the 'net to be a wonderfully informative place filled with great people who are more than able and willing to answer your questions!

I won't address your questions as they have already been ably answered.

I just wanted to welcome you!

Many Years,

Carole