www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Hagia Sophia

I visited Hagia Sophia last year & was overwhelmed by the experience. Just observing the architecture of Constantinople, one can't help but notice the contrast between the endurance of the Byzantine elements & then the primitive construction of the Turkish elements, many of which look like they were made from sand.

Why is Hagia Sophia in Turkish hands today? I blame the British. It was in British interests to let the Turks keep Constantinople. British meddling, as in so many other parts of the world - Ireland, Palestine, Iraq etc., brought tragedy.


Stojgniev

I would like to take up Shane's serious question:

Although the Turkish government is openly courting the Vatican for a public endorsement of its bid for EU membership, the latter has thus far remained mum and neutral on Turkey's application.

The Holy See publicly issued this unequivocal statement recently: that Turkey, as any other applicant for EU membership, should accept the basic principles adhered to by all members of the European Union. (One of those basic principles held dear by the Holy See is the freedom of worship.)

If all the other members of the EU do not water down the guarantees and Turkey accepts that responsibility of guaranteeing the freedom of worship within its borders, there is a spitting chance that the rights and properties of the EP will be restored eventually.

However, it is extremely hard to gauge the position of the Turkish government. As the consideration of its membership draws near, the Turkish media have been on a vigorous campaign to portray Turkey as committed to remaining a secular state and that it rejects the idea of another Islamic theocracy in the making.

Or . . . any other alternative?

Amado

Thanks for the answers. But, I'm still wanting to know more about this building...

When was it built? How was it taken from us (when did that happen?)?

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
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Dear SPDundas,

The building was built by Justinian in the sixth century. I think there might have been a smaller one on the sight by Constantine, but I'm not sure.

Fifty years after it was built, the dome colapsed in an earthquake. Amazing! It's miraculous when one considers that since then the dome has remained intact...waiting I guess for the time that Christianity will reign again in that part of the world.

An old Greek prophecy states that a priest holding the sacrament, walked through a door when the Turks entered. The door has disappeared and the priest will reappear when the 'Turks' (I guess) disappear. (Maybe the second coming?)

The strange thing is that Constantinople is supposed to be reconquered under an emporor named Constantine. Notice how many Greek kings have been named Constantine. I wonder why?

Actually though, the English are to blame. The city would have been conquered by Russia many times, but was hindered by the English. They didn't want Russia controlling the Bosporus.

In 1922 when the Greeks took over Asia Minor, the troops marched to Constantinople and were confronted by English and European troops. (I guess they didn't want the Greeks controlling the Bosporus either). The rest was a tragedy, as the Greek soldiers as well as the millions of Christian inhabitants were driven to the sea.

Winston Churchil though, did have dreams of conquering Istanbul. Had he done so, the city would be Greek today, after all the city was predominantly Greeks before the ethnic cleansing of the 1950's. He failed because the English fleet was sitting outside of the city waiting for the wind to change. It finally did, the day after the fleet left.

We lost Istanbul for good, and Winston lost his job as head of the English admiralty. Makes me wonder, if the Greeks prayed more, and fought less, maybe things would have turned out differently.

Today there are only five thousand elderly Greeks in the city. Now when they are all gone, the Turks will conveniently allow freedom of religion.

Okay, about the prophecies. There was one by a monk over a thousand years ago, that is quite interesting. He said that in the last days, Constantinople will belong to a certain tribe in the north called the 'Rus'. If so, the Turks will certainly not be thrown into the sea, so it seems to me that either the Patriarchate will become Russian, or possible, the Turks will become Christian.

We will just have to see and wait.

Zenovia

Thanks for the answers. But, I'm still wanting to know more about this building...

When was it built? How was it taken from us (when did that happen?)?

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear SPDundas,

The building was built by Justinian in the sixth century. I think there might have been a smaller one on the sight by Constantine, but I'm not sure.

Fifty years after it was built, the dome colapsed in an earthquake. Amazing! It's miraculous when one considers that since then the dome has remained intact...waiting I guess for the time that Christianity will reign again in that part of the world.

An old Greek prophecy states that a priest holding the sacrament, walked through a door when the Turks entered. The door has disappeared and the priest will reappear when the 'Turks' (I guess) disappear. (Maybe the second coming?)

The strange thing is that Constantinople is supposed to be reconquered under an emporor named Constantine. Notice how many Greek kings have been named Constantine. I wonder why?

Actually though, the English are to blame. The city would have been conquered by Russia many times, but was hindered by the English. They didn't want Russia controlling the Bosporus.

In 1922 when the Greeks took over Asia Minor, the troops marched to Constantinople and were confronted by English and European troops. (I guess they didn't want the Greeks controlling the Bosporus either). The rest was a tragedy, as the Greek soldiers as well as the millions of Christian inhabitants were driven to the sea.

Winston Churchil though, did have dreams of conquering Istanbul. Had he done so, the city would be Greek today, after all the city was predominantly Greeks before the ethnic cleansing of the 1950's. He failed because the English fleet was sitting outside of the city waiting for the wind to change. It finally did, the day after the fleet left.

We lost Istanbul for good, and Winston lost his job as head of the English admiralty. Makes me wonder, if the Greeks prayed more, and fought less, maybe things would have turned out differently.

Today there are only five thousand elderly Greeks in the city. Now when they are all gone, the Turks will conveniently allow freedom of religion.

Okay, about the prophecies. There was one by a monk over a thousand years ago, that is quite interesting. He said that in the last days, Constantinople will belong to a certain tribe in the north called the 'Rus'. If so, the Turks will certainly not be thrown into the sea, so it seems to me that either the Patriarchate will become Russian, or possible, the Turks will become Christian.

We will just have to see and wait.

Zenovia

Thanks Zenovia, very interesting.

Hello all,

Thanks for your kind responses. I appreciate learning new things about the Hagia Sophia.

Hmm...puzzling how the Muslims left Christian symbols and Icons all over the interior. Wonder WHY though?

But anyway, I wish the folks in Turkey start breeding MORE Christians so the Christians can reclaim their heritage and status.

Listen to what the Pope said about contraception!

Let the People of G-d be fruitful and multiply AND SUBDUE the earth!

Blessings,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Some idle speculation based on this prophecy:

1) The monks prediction pre-empts the rise of 'the third Rome' aka Moscow and anticipates a time when Moscow will become Constantinople to all Orthodox Christians. Indeed, Soloviev and many like him seemed to view it in these terms. In his book on the Antichrist he has the final Pope Peter end the East-West schism with John, Patriarch of Moscow. Is this view widespread? Is Moscow "Constantinople" in many peoples eyes?

2) The Patriarchate is going to become Ukranian. I read, I think through this website, that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has offered to intervene in the problems of Ukranian Orthodoxy and has given no guarantees moreover of autocephaly thereafter. Given the way the Turk have tried to slowly and surely surpress the Phanar Patriarchate could it be then that, in the near future, the Ecumenical Patriarchate might end up in Kiev?

3) In 1951 at a peace conference in Fatima, Archbishop Fulton J Sheen stated: �Our Lady has been chosen to be known by the name of FATIMA, which was the name of the daughter of Mohammed, because She has come not only for the conversion of Russia but also for the millions of Mohammedans...without whom there could never be true world peace.� Could it be that her demand for the conversion of Russia also links to this monks prophecy and pre-empts the reconversion of Asia Minor and the rest of the Old Christian East?

4) Given that St Faustina was given the Divine Mercy devotion (http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/index.htm) to prepare the world for the eschaton could the 'end' whatever the 'end' means be pre-empted by the Constantinople of the Rus?

Here's an interesting prophecy:
The Prophesy of
St. Nilus the Myrrhstreamer
(1651)

"After the year 1900, toward the middle of the 20th century, the people of that time will become unrecognizable.

When the time of the advent of the antichrist approaches, people's minds will grow cloudy from carnal passions, and dishonour and lawlessness will grow stronger. Then the world will grow unrecognizable. People's appearances will change, and it will be impossible to distinguish men from women due to their shamelessness in dress and style of hair. These people will be cruel and will be like wild animals because of the temptations of the antichrist. There will be no respect for parents and elders, love will disappear, and CHRISTIAN PASTORS, BISHOPS, AND PRIESTS WILL BECOME VIAL MEN, COMPLETELY FAILING TO DISTINGUISH THE RIGHT-HAND WAY FROM THE LEFT.

At that time the morals and traditions of Christians and of the Church will change. People will abandon modesty, and dissipation will reign. Falsehood and greed will attain great proportions, and woe to those who pile up treasures. Lust, adultery, homosexuality, secret deeds, and murder will rule in society.

At that future time, due to the power of such great crimes and licentiousness, people will be deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which they received in Holy Baptism, and equally of remorse.

THE CHURCHES OF GOD WILL BE DEPRIVED OF GOD-FEARING AND PIOUS PASTORS, and woe to the Christians remaining in the world at that time; they will completely lose their faith because they will lack the opportunity of seeing the light of knowledge from anyone at all. They will separate themselves out of the world in holy refuges in search of a lightening of their spiritual sufferings, but everywhere they will meet obstacles and constraints. And this will result from the fact that the antichrist wants to be lord over everything and becomes the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs.

He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation from one end of the earth to the other. At that time, men will also fly through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fish. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is the deceit of antichrist.

And the impious one! - he will so complete science with vanity, that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence of God. Then God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved, because the enemy wants to lead even the chosen into temptation, if that is possible ... then the sword of chastisement will suddenly appear to kill the perverter."

WOW, Zenovia....

if that doesn't say it all!

'Save o God they people and bless thine inheritance'!

In Christ,
Alice

"Hmm...puzzling how the Muslims left Christian symbols and Icons all over the interior. Wonder WHY though?

But anyway, I wish the folks in Turkey start breeding MORE Christians so the Christians can reclaim their heritage and status."


Dear Spundas,

Actually, the Christian symbols were painting over by the Turks, and have just recently been descovered.

As for breeding Christians, the Turks don't want them, and when the Turks don't want someone, they better run for their lives. The are waiting for the time when Orthodox will simply not exist in Turkey.

...Yet, if anyone was to do the slightest thing to any Turk in Greek Thrace, their propaganda machine would be going full pace. I can just see CNN now, showing poor Thracian Turks leaving. They'll be paid to pretend to be leaving of course, because Moslems (the leaders I mean), believe that holding on to real estate is more important than human life or comfort.

To understand the situation, one has to realize that under the Treaty of Lausanne, 25,000 Turks were allowed to live in Thrace. Today there are 125,000. The Ecumenical Patriarch was also allowed to remain in Istanbul.

Well, the Turks accomplished their ethnic cleansing of the Greeks of Istanbul in the 1950's, and in order for someone to become Patriarch, they must have Turkish citizenship. It has nothing to do with the birth rate. There are no young Orthodox Christians...At least not Greek Orthodox one's.

It's always been a win, win, situation for the Turks. They seem to be very accomplished in the Byzantine art of diplomacy.

What the Patriarch needs is Lawrence of Arabia to come and save him from the Turks. (Just joking of course).

Zenovia

Interesting prophecy, Zenovia. We may not be quite that bad yet, but some of the things mentioned do seem to be appearing.

So where settled then, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is either going to end up in Kiev or Moscow? Hmm, wonder how the Greek nation at large will take that one?

As for the eschatological prophecy a) I'm not too worried because the prophecy need not come true and b) if the world really is going to end *shrugs* cool, Christ in the flesh on earth in my own lifetime. Could be a whole lot worse, nai?

This is from a post I made earlier today in Church News. These icons are weeping and bleeding but they relate to Russia. It just strikes me odd that this discussion is going on about Russia and here these are. There is a link showing some of the icons.

https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001894#000001

Odd...a prophecy about Constantinople becoming Rus whilst in the land of the Rus the Blessed Virgin is weeping blood? Does anybody sense that something isnt exactly right about this? Is Heaven unhappy with us? I know Our Lady wished for Russia to be consecrated to her, and it was...but I suppose the whole conversion of the nation and devotion to her Immaculate Heart arent exactly spreading like wildfire.

I dont know what conditions are like in the East but since the Second Vatican Council many modernists have been trying to undermine Marian devotion. Thank Heaven for John Paul II whose devotion to Our Lady has been untiring...

My sentiments are that prophecies that are part of private revelation need not happen but will happen if we dont respond to them. Currently though it looks as though we're not responding. Russia seems to be increasingly the focus of Divine attention, it has been since Fatima, and I'd say the people 'upstairs' know something about her future that we dont. If the Turk continue their policy against the Ecumenical Patriarchate, it will have to leave Constantinople, and if it indeed ends up under the 'Rus' lets hope that this is for good and not for bad.

Since we're on the subject of the eschaton, has anybody heard of the prophecy's of St Malachy's propechy? I mean I dont want to turn this thread into a fixated obsession with the end, especially since I do want to see the ressurected Lord anyway and I dont think its anything to fear, but anyways. Check it out, if its true then we've only got 2 Popes to go until the age of the 6th covenant ends and the 7th and culminating one begins: http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp

If there is anything to the prophecy of 'St Malachy' then maybe all that Zenovia has said is simply the sign of the times, eh? Whatever the weather being 19 I'd say I'm going to live to see some pretty interesting twists and turns in the course of Christian History if God lengthens my days.

But alas her Immaculate Heart will triumph as she promised.

AMDG

Myles I think this article is hope of the "times they are a changn' " I believe that people are going home. That the young people of today have watched my generation make a mochary of so much. They will return to the True Faith and despite what the news says I believe they are, and through God's grace restore what the locusts have eaten.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=618472

Pani Rose