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RichC,

One more thing! You said, "Our "tradition" is to have the liturgy in the language of the people..."

I beg to differ! The Slavic people DO NOT have a monopoly on the Byzantine Catholic Church. The Church is NOT an Ethnic Church. To say so shows bias. Now, I know you are not bias.

God Bless!

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

I appreciate the kind words from Rich and from Alex.

For the record, I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of "AmChurch". But I am an American, I'm a member of the Church, and I have this nasty habit of always asking questions: "Why?"

I'm not one to accept the answer: "because that's the way it is". Perhaps some interpret my questioning as a rejection of the status quo. That's not it. I just want to know "why" something is so in order to better understand it. And, if change is called for, then to implement a change that makes sense.

While in seminary (and yes, I did graduate with the M.Div. degree), I had a lot of run-ins with the more liberal factions; why the run-ins? Because I kept asking: "Why?". As an educated adult, I have the constant expectation that I will get reasonable and rational responses to my inquiries.

Over my years, I have learned that not everyone operates on this principle. Indeed, there are many who fly by the seat of their emotional pants and who become truly vexed when someone asks "why".

To be characterized as "AmChurch" because of what I said on the Architecture thread puzzles me. Personally, I think the architecture of this new St. Mary's is rather horrid. The tower reminds me of a big brick kiln. But maybe inside,it might be better; remains to be seen when it's finished.

My own preferences: European Gothic architecture is just fine for churches -- but prohibitively expensive now. So, my other favorite is Georgian architecture. (Like the inside of the [old] Baltimore Cathedral). Classy clean lines with a minimum of doo-dads to distract from the Liturgy. So, as for my personal tastes, nothing radical there.

Blessings!

You said your church was traditional because it uses some Church Slavonic, and I was pointing out that really, strict adherence to tradition would eliminate the possibility of Church Slavonic being used in Florida -- or anywhere else in the world, for that matter -- since nobody speaks Church Slavonic. Archaism does not equal traditionalism.

Dear Ukrainian Catholic,

I'd like to share another way of looking at what AmChurch is.

AmChurch is a mental construct like liberal and conservative are mental constructs. They're ways of looking at things to try to understand them better. They are in the mind.

As a term, AmChurch, is a perjorative in its use by most posters here. Some people use it to lump together American Latin Catholics who may or may not share some characteristics.

The presence of women around the altar; the use of non-ordained Eucharistic Ministers most especially the use of women as Eucharistic Ministers; the lack of Gregorian chant as the ordinary form of church music; the position of the priest's body during the Liturgy; even poor taste and poor architecture are seen as abuses and are used to label a person or church or even the Latin Church in America as AmChurch.

Once someone identifies something as AmChurch, examples of it are found and sometimes real abuses are offered as proof that AmChurch, actually is out there in reality. If members of a local church support the use of Eucaharistic Ministers, the church is labeled AmChurch.

Mental constructs are easy to use once you grasp their parameters. They can be used to avoid dealing with the nuances of a situation. If x, y and z make up A; and x, y, and z are present; voila you have A. If women are on the altar; the church building is ugly; and the priest faces the people; you have AmChurch.

Something may be missed doing this.

The things which make the Church the Church in reality are the offering of Eucharist, the celebration of the Mysteries, and the preaching of the Gospel, and service to the children of God. If one concentrates on x, y, and z, the reality of Eucharist, Mysteries, Preaching and Service is lost.

The use of constructs and terms like AmChurch might even be necessary for those who do not have extensive lived experience as memebers of the Latin Catholic Church in America. As Dr. John is fond of saying, our Churches are complex and messy. They defy easy explanation.

There is no institutional AmChurch in reality anywhere in the United States that is in union with the Pope. Within parishes there may be some persons who may share characteristics determined by others to be AmChurch. They are members of the Latin Catholic Church.

The point here is that the mental constructs like AmChurch are not reality. They are simply tools to help us to learn and to understand. But, let's not confuse the tool for studying a reality with the reality.

Because of dislike of architecture we might forget that the Liturgy and the Mysteries are celebrated and that the Local Church might present Christ in the area where they are.

I hope that this helps to clarify what AmChurch is. I hope, too, that it helps to clarify why I said earlier in the thread that AmChurch is inside a person's head. As Alex suggested elsewhere, If someone could point out AmChurch headquarters, I would be there protesting it.

Instead, we, Latin Catholics, following the Second Vatican Council are dealt a much harder hand. We must root out abuses without killing the aggiormento so beloved in our Church. It's all in the nuances.

I hope no offense is taken from the above. It is what I know and understand and think expressed poorly no doubt. I offer no apology for the thought. I can control what I say, but not what others read.

In Peace!

Steve
JOY!

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Steve, once again you have hit the nail (nails?) on the head! I love to read your posts my friend, keep up the good work! God bless and keep you and your's my friend and brother!
Don

Dear Anastasios,

Thank you for your balanced comments earlier. I appreciate them as I appreciated your comments when I was about to post a troubling post I received from Serge. The only reason I mention that is that the posting you refer to was about it and my reaction to it.

****************
Please let me make a few comments in addition.


"Steve,

I think you made some inappropriate comments to Serge early in the thread (see below), but I see you are trying to be nice to Serge, now. But the constant praise of Kurt and Dr. J. makes you look like you are "one" with them and hence, teaming up against Serge."


Anastasios, I do not come here to abuse or irritate people. I am glad from your subsequent comments to Serge that you understand that. Neither Serge nor any other poster is my focus here. I come here to learn of the East as the Pope encourages us Latin Catholics to do.

I come in love and try to express myself in that way and I am mocked for that! I do not come in hate. I write in my own style. I am personally abused for that! I don't hear anyone speaking about that. Haven't received an apology to this date!

But that is ok. It's not that important to me. I cannot change who I am after the better part of a lifetime nor can I change my mode of self expression. I don't want to!

I am silent when I have nothing to say. I am silent, for the most part on issues having to do with Eastern Christianity.

I have spoken out and will continue to do so when I feel that the perspective of an active Latin Catholic is useful in the discussion., I will speak out to correct misinformation or distortion of what my Church is or teaches. I offer no apology for that.

I see no reason to edit my remarks to please or to be or not to be party to any person or group here. When I agree with Alex or Kurt or Dr. John or Brendan or Serge, I will say so if I feel the need to. If I disagree, I will say so. If someone perceives that to be a personal attack, that is regrettable. It is not intended.

I am too old to waste my time dealing with issues like this. Time is not limitless.

I'm here because the Pope suggested that we learn of you. I'm teaming with all of you to learn about the East! The team I'm on is the Catholic Communion. It's where I belong. I'm glad too that the Orthodox posters are here.

I'm glad that all of you are here to help me learn.

*****************

"Steve,

When you said that you don't expect attacks from Serge's friends, were you referring to me? I hope not becuase I didn't mean to sound like that in the one post I addressed to you."

I think that you were helping me to learn bout the net a bit. I'm grateful for that. I understand though that if I give notice that I will post abusive postings sent to me, or address their contents publicly, that I can. I give such notice. I will in the future. If I am wrong in this, please let me know.

************

"Serge,

....

"Do you really think that Steve hates you and is seething with every post to get at you? I don't think so. I think Steve in the past said some inappropriate things (such as the allusion to AmChurch being only in your mind), but I don't think it's good to be looking for ulterior motives behind every post."

Anastasios, I thank you for this assumption of good will on my part. I was speaking in general terms again and my words were misinterpreted. Please see my remarks in my posting to Ukranian Catholic.

Again, thank you Anastasios.

In Peace!

Steve
JOY!

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

"Steve,
If you feel that I've injured you, please accept my apology."


"Serge,
In all seriousness, accepted. God forgives. And pray for me, a sinner."


Serge,
I am glad that there is this reconciliation between us. I trust in God's forgiveness and certainly will continue to pray for you as I hope you will for me.

Steve
JOY!

Don,

Thank you for your kind words. You are an example of courtesy to all of us.

Did the fog clear, do you think?

Steve
JOY!

Dear Steve,

I think it was more like smoke - gunsmoke - and yes, I think it's clearing finally!

Alex

Dear RC@work,

Whether you like my logic or not, I thank you for making that clear.

I was simply trying to ensure that we don't go off the deep end with how we characterize one another.

I am very glad to hear that that was not your intention at all.

Forgive me if I have upset you in any way.

I was so upset by this whole thread that I suffered illness throughout most of last night.

I'll stay calm today.

God bless,

Alex

Yipes! (A Dr. John-ism),

But certainly not for Byzantine churches!

Dear Free Greek,

Actually, our Jesuit Shrine is also Gothic. Perhaps this is a Jesuit thing . . .

You may be "Free" but don't sell yourself short. You are invaluable!

Have a nice day.

Alex

Nah, not Gothic or Georgian for a Greek style church building. (Although, there are evidently some quasi-Georgian churches in the vicinity of St. Petersburg, (Russia, not Florida). Replete with pastel walls, and pediments and lots of clear lines. But with icons and lampstands. Strikes me as very unusual, but very attractive.

For Greeks, on the other hand, the best is still Mediterranean style with whitewash and deep colors for domes. And lots of plants.

I may have mentioned before that I had had the opportunity to visit the bishop's residence in Newton many years ago and saw the chapel. The walls were a brilliant white, with old icons mounted on them and lamps hanging in front. The carpet was a deep crimson. And the altar was square, and surmounted by two pieces of the whitest linen I have ever seen. With a gospel book, of course. Stark simplicity -- and just stunning!!

Blessings!

Nah, not Gothic or Georgian for a Greek style church building. (Although, there are evidently some quasi-Georgian churches in the vicinity of St. Petersburg, (Russia, not Florida). Replete with pastel walls, and pediments and lots of clear lines. But with icons and lampstands. Strikes me as very unusual, but very attractive.

For Greeks, on the other hand, the best is still Mediterranean style with whitewash and deep colors for domes. And lots of plants.

I may have mentioned before that I had had the opportunity to visit the bishop's residence in Newton many years ago and saw the chapel. The walls were a brilliant white, with old icons mounted on them and lamps hanging in front. The carpet was a deep crimson. And the altar was square, and surmounted by two pieces of the whitest linen I have ever seen. With a gospel book, of course. Stark simplicity -- and just stunning!!

Beautiful, beautiful.

Couldn't come up with an answer to my challenge yesterday to your ad hominem, lies and half-truths, huh?

I'm not surprised. You're full of hot air.

"Blessings!'

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

For many years I was a member of a wonderful group called the Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius, which brings together Orthodox and Anglican Christians. The UK branch has a home page (www.sobornost [sobornost]) and links from it give the text of the 1922 statment by the Ecumencial Patriarch recognizing Anglican Orders.

Axios