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And the right to parade, which - ah - is what we've been talking about?

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Originally posted by djs:
[QB]
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Gay pride parades are licentious
It is fair to say that at the St. Patrick's day parade in Boston, when I lived in the area, there was considerable licentiousness -
It would be a stretch, however, to say that that parade or any parade "is" licentious.
1) You are comparing a St. Patrick's day parade to "Gay Pride" parades?!?
2) You've not seen what happens at "Gay Pride" parades? Just the notion itself of "Gay Pride" or throwing a parade to celebrate sodomy is licentious.

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Originally posted by djs:
And the right to parade, which - ah - is what we've been talking about?
Show me where any such "right" is recognized by the Church magisterium...

It is NOT a "right."

It is government condoned licentiousness.

In a similar fashion, the "right" to choose is not a right either. It is government condoned murder.

In Catholic thought, it is a government's duty to protect the innocent and safeguard the welfare of the citizenry.

Permitting sodomites to recruit and break down traditional taboos against sodomy via "Gay Pride Parades" is not part of the constitutionally defined duties of the US government, nor is it permitted in any Catholic moral or social framework whatsoever.

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1) You are comparing a St. Patrick's day parade to "Gay Pride" parades?!?
I do make a comparison. Both have entailed licentiousness, the licentiousness of both have been criticized, and remedies to unlawful behavior exist. Nothing more, however, is implied. Is there a law on punctuation?

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2) You've not seen what happens at "Gay Pride" parades?
True. My support for the right to have a parade does not entail participation in any way, even as a spectator.

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Just the notion itself of "Gay Pride" or throwing a parade to celebrate sodomy is licentious
So also a parade "to celbrate Nazism" - although I am not sure that is what the Neo-Nazis were doing in Skokie, nor for that matter do I pretend any certain insight into why gays parade.

But whose rights shall we defend? Just the people who we deem good. That would be no one.

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But whose rights shall we defend? Just the people who we deem good. That would be no one.
Gosh, you know, it just seems common sense that its not a "right" to promote sodomy or permit gay pride parades to allow sodomists to recruit and further degrade the average American's understanding of basic right and wrong.

The Catholic church just spent three excruciating, gut wrenching, bankrupting years dealing with the aftermath of permitting homosexuals in the priesthood.

We've spent several BILLION dollars in compensating the victims of homosexual molestation, and paying lawyers to defend these cases.

Fully 82% of the moestation cases were homosexual in nature.

What other parades must we defend the 'rights" of the participants to hold?

"Bestiality-pride parades"

"Incest-pride parades?"

"Man-boy love pride parades?"

Sorry, but I refuse to be so dumbed down as to say that I support the "right" of sodomists to parade through our streets so that -- having already destroyed the Christian social prohibitions on sodomy -- they can next fulfill their agenda of lowering the universal age of consent so that there is no longer any crime called "pedophilia" among their target demographic, post-pubescent teens.

Open your eyes. We are in a culture war for our children's world. We lost the battle against sodomy. The next one is to make legal their sodomizing our children. So that they can have "Chickenhawking-pride parades" by 2020.

Maybe my posts on this thread seem harsh. But I've met too many victims of homosexual priests to accept this nonsense that sodomists have a "right" to further push their agenda down our collective throats.

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The next one is to make legal their sodomizing our children. So that they can have "Chickenhawking-pride parades" by 2020.

Maybe my posts on this thread seem harsh. But I've met too many victims of homosexual priests to accept this nonsense that sodomists have a "right" to further push their agenda down our collective throats. [/QB]
Background documentation for this point:

Fears Grow Over Academic Efforts to Normalize Pedophilia [cnsnews.com]

Potential trouble on the Supreme Court

However, restraining the Court may prove more difficult than expected. Responding to criticism aimed at Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) over his conclusions that the Lawrence decision could lead to legalized pedophilia and other sexual acts, the Catholic Family Association of America (CFAA) pointed to a potential pedophilia advocate on the Court itself.

"Given that homosexual advocates are in a full court press to lower the age of consent as low as it can go, and pro-pedophile sitting Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg 's documented advocacy of lowering the age of consent to 12 years old, parents should be horrified that there are so few politicians, like Sen. Santorum, actually defending the family," Timothy Chichester, CFAA president, said April 23.

Chichester was referring to a paper authored by Ginsburg entitled "Sex Bias in the U.S. Code," which was prepared for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights in April 1977

The allegation was further substantiated by Robert Knight, director of CWA's Culture Institute, in "Homosexual Behavior and Pedophilia," an article he co-authored with the Family Research Council's Frank York.

"When U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was an attorney for the ACLU, she co-authored a report recommending that the age of consent for sexual acts be lowered to 12 years of age," the article points out.

Knight and York's footnoted documentation on this is as follows: "Sex Bias in the U.S. Code," Report for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, April 1977, p. 102, quoted in "Ruth Bader Ginsburg's Feminist World View," The Phyllis Schlafly Report, Vol. 26, No. 12, Section 1, p. 3. The paragraph (from the Ginsburg report) reads as follows: "'Eliminate the phrase "carnal knowledge of any female, not his wife, who has not attained the age of 16 years" and substitute a federal, sex-neutral definition of the offense. ... A person is guilty of an offense if he engages in a sexual act with another person. ... [and] the other person is, in fact, less than 12 years old.'"

LaRue said pedophiles may co-opt language used in the Lawrence decision regarding homosexuals; that laws against their behavior are a discriminatory attempt to harm them as a persecuted minority. And they will be supported, she claimed, by academia.

Reclassifying pedophilia already subject to debate

During its annual convention in May, the American Psychiatric Association hosted a symposium discussing the removal of pedophilia along with other categories of mental illness (collectively known as paraphilia) from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

After much criticism following CNSNews.com coverage of the symposium, the APA issued a statement reiterating its position on pedophilia.

But in his 1999 article "Harming the Little Ones: The Effects of Pedophilia on Children," Timothy Dailey, senior analyst for cultural studies with the Family Research Council, chronicled the APA's treatment of pedophilia in the DSM and compares it to the APA evolution of homosexuality.

In DSM revisions, Dailey explained that APA "adds a subjective qualification similar to that which appeared with regard to homosexuality: The individual must be 'markedly distressed' by his own pedophilic activity to be considered needful of therapy," Dailey wrote, adding that in the latest revision, pedophilia "is to be considered a paraphilia when the behavior causes 'clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning.'"

Mary Eberstadt, research fellow at the Hoover Institute, told CNSNews.com: "The evidence is plain: there is indeed an ongoing attempt from within the psychiatric and psychological communities to de-stigmatize pedophilia by de-classifying it as a paraphilia in the first place."

Academic efforts to normalize pedophilia draw fire, praise

For further evidence, Eberstadt points to "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples," a study published in the July 1998 Psychological Bulletin of the American Psychological Association.

It contended that "negative effects (of child sexual abuse) were neither pervasive nor typically intense, and that men reacted much less negatively than women." It further stipulated that children's feelings about sexual encounters with adults should be taken into effect and that "a willing encounter with positive reactions would be labeled simply adult-child sex."

Publication of the report resulted in a formal denunciation in the House of Representatives, which voted 355-0 to condemn the essay.

In 1999, after being rejected by several publishing houses, the University of Minnesota Press published Harmful to Minors by journalist Judith Levine, including a foreword by former Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders, who was asked to resign by President Bill Clinton after she endorsed making masturbation part of the public school curriculum.

In the book, Levine contends that pedophiles are "myths" and faults the government for making pedophilia illegal.

"Pedophiles are not generally violent, if there is such thing as pedophiles at all," Levin wrote. "More important, sexual contact with a child does not a pedophile make."

After a flurry of controversy ensued, the University of Minnesota Press issued a press release defending its publication of the work.

"Neither the University Press nor the University of Minnesota endorses the theses of authors it publishes, including that of Ms. Levine. In fact, some within the university may vehemently disagree," said Christine Maziar, vice president for research and dean of the graduate school in the release. "University presses by their nature will publish work on controversial subjects; it's our responsibility to ensure that the procedures and processes of the press foster both academic freedom and quality publications."

Eberstadt, LaRue and others have pointed out that Levine's assertions in the book rest solely on pro-pedophilia sources such as the NAMBLA Bulletin, and Levine's work earned her a book prize from the Los Angeles Times.

The roots of de-stigmatizing pedophilia in contemporary society

Peter Sprigg, Family Research Council director of Marriage and Family Studies, told CNSNews.com that the movement to de-stigmatize pedophilia within academia can be traced back to Alfred Kinsey in 1948.

Knight provided further explanation saying: "This view, argued on the fringe by pedophile authors over the past century, gained enormous respect when Alfred C. Kinsey published his books on male and female sexuality in 1948 and 1953, known collectively as the Kinsey Report.

"Kinsey worked to lower penalties for sex offenders and said he couldn't understand why children were harmed by being sexually touched by adults," Knight continued. "He based this on a series of sex experiments on children as young as 2 months of age. A chapter in Sexual Behavior in the Human Male reports on the molestation of hundreds of boys, with Kinsey concluding that the victims enjoyed the activity."

Sprigg said it was "inevitable" that redefining pedophilia as not being a mental disorder would pave the way for greater social and legal acceptance of that behavior.

But Linda Nicolosi, publications director for the National Association for Research and Therapy for Homosexuality, warned that the concept of mental illness "is not and cannot" be a strictly "scientific" matter, such as a broken leg.

"No one would argue that a broken leg isn't a physical illness," Nicolosi explained to CNSNews.com. "But mental illness is a much more controversial matter; no one has ever come up with a universal definition of mental illness that is consistent across cultures and throughout time."

Nicolosi argued that "as society changes, the definition of mental illness is likely to change along with it. Therefore, as our society comes increasingly to value sexual liberation and children's autonomy, pressure increases on the psychiatric establishment to stop pathologizing things like childhood sexual expression, gender variance and homosexuality."

"The danger arises when the public gives psychiatry too much power; when the layman assumes that psychiatry 'knows something' about sexuality that the moral ethicist does not," Nicolosi said. "Psychiatry cannot tell the layman that homosexuality, or pedophilia, or sado-masochistic sex are 'healthy' because science has no concept of 'healthy sex' that is not values-laden."

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Doc,

This is a little side note.

Last year at this time here in Jersey City, my councilman, with a fine Irish Catholic name, was depicted hoisting the "gay flag" at one of the cultural weekend events sponsered by the tax payers of JC in the local paper on a Sat. morning.

I know this guy and saw him a his pub a few minutes ago. He is the type to do anyting fashionable for a vote.

The scandal of saying the sin of homosexuality is ok might have crossed his mind, but the attitude is apparently that there are are a block of voters who are homosexual, so pander to them.

The regular people just put up with this crap.

These are tough times we live in.

Jim

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Doc Brian,

You are my kind of guy. I hope we meet someday. I find the arguments put forth by the defenders of gay rights parades to be completely secular and non Christian entirely. What's "funny" actually "rotten" about this is that it is a defense of licenteousness. Why would a Catholic pander to licenteousness? Such pandering is scandalous. Such pandering gives a serious appearance of evil.

The arguments may be innocent, though I find it a stretch to believe that. It is one thing to say that we are limited for the time being in praying for the lost souls who participate in such parades. We must bide our time, I suppose. It's quite another to pander to this evil. It is one thing to say I've lived in a secluded room all of my life and have never ever seen a gay parade. And quite another to claim to have had a normal social life and have never seen one. I simply don't believe someone who says that they have never seen a gay rights parade either live or on Television. The claim is not believable.

Be that as it may, my method for confronting this evil is and always will be to try to convert the evil ones and work to get their parades banned from public consumption. I have never thrown an egg nor an epithet and don't intend to.

CDL

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Be that as it may, my method for confronting this evil is and always will be to try to convert the evil ones and work to get their parades banned from public consumption. I have never thrown an egg nor an epithet and don't intend to.

CDL [/QB]
Beautiful advice, Dan, thank you. I've never thrown an egg. (And a good Christian polemicist would defend me when I say I don't throw epithets. Unfortunately, some people have differing definitions of epithets.) :rolleyes:

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I hope we meet someday.
I tried to convince my wife that the long-weekend vacation we scheduled (while the children visit their grandparents) over the August 5th weekend, for our 15th anniversary, would be well spent at the August 6 Forum on "Transfiguring Our Future" in Indiana.

She said, "That's great. We can go up to Indiana for a day."

When I informed her it was the STATE of Indiana, not Indiana PA, she reneged. Go figure.

Oh well, I tried. I really wish we could have attended.

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My gracious man, where do you live that Indiana, Pa. seems more appealing than Indiana? I note that Indiana, Pa. is east of Pittsburgh. Are you familiar with Bushy Run Battlefield State Park in Jeannette? My brother and I are attending our national family reunion there on August 28. If you are near stop by and we'll share a beverage. Since I've never before attended this I don't know what kinds of beverages will be available.

Dan L

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Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[QB] My gracious man, where do you live that Indiana, Pa. seems more appealing than Indiana?
My sincere apologies for any misunderstanding, but it is not that the State of Indiana is less appealing. Its just that it is less ... close.


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I note that Indiana, Pa. is east of Pittsburgh. Are you familiar with Bushy Run Battlefield State Park in Jeannette?
I had never been there prior to last fall.

However, my direct ancestors were well-known and respected gunsmiths in the early to mid 1800's, and last fall we drove over to Bushy Run Battlefield State Park to examine three superb examples of their rifles at the museum there.

I'd be happy to drive over to visit! Its less than 90 minutes from here in Johnstown PA.

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Doc,

That would be great. We plan to be there around noon though the reunion doesn't start until 1:00 p.m. I expect that it will be fairly well attended as our family has been in the states since before there were states ca. 1730. A draft copy of a new edition of the family history will be shown. The first one was published in 1906 and this one is due for print in 2006.

Dan L

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What's "funny" actually "rotten" about this is that it is a defense of licenteousness. Why would a Catholic pander to licenteousness? Such pandering is scandalous. Such pandering gives a serious appearance of evil.
Thanks for clarifying the "funny business". But my recollection is that no one on this forum has ever defended or pandered to the licentiousness. I am happy to be corrected on this point, but I cannot recall a single example.

btw I have not been to a gay parade. I have, however, seen brief clips on TV - probably they are sanitized for prime time viewing. You really ought to check about a person's meaning, Dan, before you make a claim about their remarks being unbelievable. :rolleyes:

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Gosh, you know, it just seems common sense that its not a "right" to promote sodomy or permit gay pride parades to allow sodomists to recruit and further degrade the average American's understanding of basic right and wrong.
You've moved from parades to recruiting. Maybe those of you with more experience can comment on the recruiting done at such parades. I will say, however, that it fair to criticize the use of the word "right". There are fundamental rights of assembly and speech and equal protection of the law. There is no right to parade, but if some can parade, then equal protection means that there has to be a compelling reason to deny it others - and in America we have very strict standards about such denials.

And this situation of course does violate common sense. Common sense says: "what I think". It took some brilliance, to see beyond this. And the payoff is not that we can get (or ignore for those not transfixed by it) execrable junk, the payoff is that we are secure in the possibility of our speaking out and having our say. What makes you think that it is a given that Catholics could speak out, or even worship in this country? If you deny rights of speech, assembly, and equal protection to others, who do you expect to support it for you. Rememeber that the constituion was framed in Philadelphia because it was the one place in America where the founders could each go to their own church.

[And, btw, what does any of this have to do with the billions spent? If you read the report from Boston, your time line is way off; the vast majority of incidents antedated any gay parades that I am aware of (and also VII, btw). So what are you talking about?]

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Open your eyes. We are in a culture war for our children's world. We lost the battle against sodomy. The next one is to make legal their sodomizing our children. So that they can have "Chickenhawking-pride parades" by 2020.
I think, Doc, that you are missing the boat, here, tragically. The culture was lost before the battle over sodomy. And IMO drawing the line there continues to be a losing tactic.

We live in a sex saturated, contraceptive, quick to divorce, promiscuous, heterosexual culture. That is not the fault of gays, they are just keeping up. In a society that valued chastity and modesty, in which one's sex life was a private matter, gays would be invisible. And as long as we scapegoat them - at the risk of contributing to invidious discrimination and even violence - we will not overcome the fundamental problem that we face. But with the notable exception of Bill Bennett, how often do you hear conservatives stipulating that gay issues are of minor consequence on our children's lives as compared, e.g., to rampant divorce. But what attention does it get as an issue? Why the disparity?

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