www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Lotsa changes in store for the Roman Catholics

Axios,

How can you say complaints have preceeded the abuses when in the Roman Catholic church this issue of trying to enforce a unified posture on the laity following communion has been going on for some time?

I personally know of people who were told that they should not kneel in prayer after they receive communon - but must stand, sing a hymn and wait until all have received. In one case as soon as the Communion rite was completed, the priest immediately said the closing prayer - without allowing for any opportunity for silent reflection. One lady I know has been very upset by this. She is not a member of a "pressure group" with a "rigid agenda", just a poor soul who has been denied the freedom to do what her mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother have done in church. And this, not as a mandate from the Holy See, but from those who feel they must change the devotion of the common people to further what is the only agenda I see in this whole situation.

The abuse HAS occurred - that is why the bishops represented by Cardinal George have asked for a clarification! It is because there has been conflict over this very issue.

Finally, and forgive me if I am missing something, but in your profile you list your affliation as Orthodox, not Catholic. You have said so in your other postings on this forum as well. Could it be that I and other Catholics might know better the liturgical problems within our own church than you? In fact in another thread, did you not chide non-Orthodox posters for attempting to advise the Russian Orthodox church concerning Protestant proselytism in that country? You seem to be very assured that you know what is going on within our household of faith. Where are you getting your facts, from experince or elsewhere?

I was on the Liturgy committee at my former Roman Church. Everyone on the committee received a copy of the GIRM.It had no Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat. When I asked our Pastor about it I received no answer.

Nicky's Baba

Dear Lemko:

I take issue with your attempt to paint me as someone who thinks the pronouncements of the Latin Church apply to the other sui juris churches.

We always say that the Churches should learn from each other. So, my point is as follows:

The Latins seem to be saying that singing during the liturgy is very improtant.

Seeing this from a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic perspective, this, I humbly suggest, should cause us to look at ourselves and think twice before we rattle off a Divine Liturgy in half and hour without so much as a note being sung.

Perhaps you are a proponent of a "low" Divine Liturgy. I don't know. Still, how you could have taken my post and come up with what you did is beyond me.


kl

Dear kl,
I certainly wasn't referring to you. I'm talking about the legions of people in our churches who for the last 10 years are pushing for altar girls, eucharistic ministers, passing of the peace, instrumental music, creative "liturgies", and such--if for no other reason than "all the other Catholics are doing it," "the Pope says it's OK," etc.

Dear Brother Elias,

When you said to Axios:

"Finally, and forgive me if I am missing something, but in your profile you list your affliation as Orthodox, not Catholic. You have said so in your other postings on this forum as well. Could it be that I and other Catholics might know better the liturgical problems within our own church than you? In fact in another thread, did you not chide non-Orthodox posters for attempting to advise the Russian Orthodox church concerning Protestant proselytism in that country? You seem to be very assured that you know what is going on within our household of faith. Where are you getting your facts, from experince or elsewhere?"

*************************

Frankly, I was surprised. Here's why:

There are experts in our Church on the beliefs and practices of Eastern Christianity. Do they have to convert to Orthodoxy before they can comment on Orthodoxy? Protestants comment on the rule of Benedict. Do they have to become Catholic or Benedictine before they comment. Even among us here, we talk about many religions and their practices including Latin Catholicism. Does an Orthodox poster have to be Latin Catholic in order to talk about the Faith or our practices?

Surely that is not the guideline on this Forum.
It is required that what is said is true and not a mistatement or a piece of misinformation about the issue in question. It is required that we reflect the love for one another that is a defining characteristic of followers of Christ in what we say and how we say it.

In what you say, you present one interpretation that suggests that abuses exist before Rome clearly states that something is an abuse. Is it not possible to interpret the bishops' request for clarification in a way other than the way in which you characterized it?

For example, couldn't it be said that when a nation's bishops need a clarification about the appropriate behavior called for in a directive, the directive in question is not clear. This is especially true when what the statement says is questioned? Even more, is it not important to with hold judgement about a thing being an abuse when the statement is cited as the basis for multiple differing practices and may result in change in the differing practices of local communities.

If the behavior is in question, on what basis does one call it an abuse before the issue has been resolved? Isn't it merely a questionable practice that needs looking into in the worst case? Cannot we, in charity, interpret Axios's comments in this light?


I agree with you with about the need for flexibility in dealing with posture and the need to avoid rigidity in our Church. I want to thank you for your postings which helped to clarify this issue.

Before the response from Rome, the issue was not clarified. There were practices about which there was a question.

I am a Latin Catholic. From my experience, it is difficult to make change in things which are treasured so dearly. Yet, the majority of us accept the changes as they come and the reasons for them explained; but, that is another discussion for another place.

I wonder if some history about how some of us Latin Catholics have talked about the Latin Church here might help to throw some further light on Axios's statement.

A number of legitimate liturgical practices associated with the Mass commonly celebrated in the Latin Church today have been called abuses on this Forum over the years. It appeared to me that they were, in a number of cases, so called by persons who have an attachment to the Mass in the form celebrated in the Latin Church during the first half of my life. Some others who claimed that legitimate practices were abuses were persons who disliked the practices and left the Catholic Communion for other churches.

This might also help to explain where Axios "got his information."

Abuses there might be and they need to be dealt with; but, the great majority of the celebrations of the Latin Mass do not contain abuses. I personally question the appropriateness of doing so here. I do so for many reasons, but I'll share two.

One reason is that this is a forum where people come to talk about Byzantine and Oriental Christianity. There are multiple forums where the Latin Catholic Church is the focus. We need this Forum to be what it is intended to and to focus on what it was created to focus on.

There is a second reason. If the focus when the Latin Church is discussed here by Latin Catholics is on the relatively small number of true abuses in our Liturgy or on problems in our Church, we do the Latin Church a disservice. We give Eastern Christians and Protestants and believers in other religions and even non-believers who come here in relatively large numbers a skewed notion of what our Church is and is about.

That may be the only source of information about Latin Catholic belief or practice that these readers take in. When they talk about us, what else can they use as a basis for their comments?

I mean no disrespect, but again, I was surprised by what appeared to be sarcastic comments to Axios. Perhaps I misinterpreted what I read.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

Dear Krilos Leader,

Yes, Lemko made a very good point with respect to an indirect way to renew our Churches!

His point was in no way disparaging of you - I can't believe we sometimes misinterpret what we say to each other, but that does happen!

(Cantor Joseph polishes off a half a dozen of me each morning before breakfast, so my jumpiness yesterday just rolled off him like water . . . ).

I've often thought that a solid, across the board reform of our Churches could take place if we developed a "final liturgical reform product" and then got the Pope to impose it on all our parishes.

The Easterners among us would be happy that reform would finally be enacted.

And the Westerners wouldn't care as long as it was the wish of His Holiness.

Everyone would be happy!

Congratulations, Lemko!

Alex

Once again we have a thread that has nothing to do with Byzantine Christianity, nothing to do with Roman/Byzantine relations, nothing that should really concern us. Maybe we should just change the name of this forum to "The Roman Forum" and get it over with. Lately it seems we spend more time focusing on Roman issues that have nothing to with us, than we do our own concerns. It gets so very tiresome. As Steve so gently pointed out, there are numerous forums that discuss Roman issues from any point of view imaginable...why can't these posts be submitted there? Don

Dear Steve,

Actually, I agree with you that Catholics and Orthodox should be able to respectfully suggest different things to each other here, absolutely.

And I don't believe Axios meant any disrespect.

But these are issues that are clearly important to our Benedictine Father in Christ, and I didn't see any sarcasm in what he wrote.

I wouldn't presume to tell the Latin Church what to do with some of their rather modern changes - but I do have some definite ideas .

And haven't you sometimes called me up on the (papal) carpet for my comments on the Novus Ordo?

Do you remember those instances?

If Benedictine can't pull Latin rank on Axios, why do you do it with me?

Alex

Bless me a sinner, Father Don!

Perhaps that is so because this Forum is the most democratic and open for such discussions!

Perhaps those other Roman forums are just too narrow-minded and set in their traditional/NO ways to be open to legitimate criticism?

The RC's have much to learn from us Easterners.

There, I've put the discussion back to where it should be . . .

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Maybe the reason that happens is that many times, someone feels the need to contrast the "good" way the Eastern Church does something with the "bad" way the Roman Church does it, which makes those who are of Roman extraction feel compelled to offer a defense.

(Having spent time on some anti-Catholic websites, I may be abnormally oversensitive to anti-Roman rhetoric ... )

Dear Alex,

I love it when we agree!

You asked:

"And haven't you sometimes called me up on the (papal) carpet for my comments on the Novus Ordo?

Do you remember those instances?

If Benedictine can't pull Latin rank on Axios, why do you do it with me? "

Alex, I have disagreed with some things that you and others have had to say about the Novus Ordo.

I have tried to discipline myself and to do so only when someone has belittled my Church, our liturgy or her practices or has misrepresented her teachings and ways or has simply told an untruth about it.

I honestly do not recall pulling Latin Rank on you and dismissing what you say because you are not Latin Catholic. I do not believe that I have said that you cannot comment on anything about the Latin Church because you are Ukranian Greek Catholic.

I do remember saying that frank discussion is good. You have your say in truth and I have mine.
I remember sharing the deep feelings and beliefs that I have and the reasons for them from my personal history.

I remember your kind responses on a number of occassions.

I truly believe that there is no higher ranking among us as Churches or us as individuals because of our membersip in a particular Church. If I have done so, I apologize.

Issues and not personalities is kind of a ground rule for me. I'd be interested in being shown when I violated it. So, since you have a better memory than me, please share when I have done the above. I've already apologized, so when you point them out, I've asked for it!

Thanks,

Steve

Dear Steve,

I must admit I feel somewhat "ganged-up" by you and Axios. You state that my post seemed sarcastic in tone. The only reason I even brought up the whole Orthodox/Catholic thing with Axios is because he seemed determined to belittle me and discount what I had said in my post about experiences that I know of concerning liturgy in the Catholic church.

Instead he sought to politicize the whole issue with his insistence about "pressure groups" with "rigid agendas" making unfounded "accusations" [shades of Hilary Clinton's vast right-wing conspiracy theories! :rolleyes: ]. Of course none of these vague references were ever explained. However, I felt that they were aimed at me personally. I wished to communicate to Axios that I - as a monk and seminary professor with a Masters in Theology - do if fact know of what I speak.

Also, ISTM that Axios has a habit of posting curt responses in reaction to threads that are heading in directions he dislikes. IMO, he does not engage but rather attempts to close off further discussion with snappy, "know-it-all" retorts. Others, like Don, pull the "Eastern card" even in a forum like the Town Hall which I thought was more open-ended than the other topical fora.

As far as the liturgical issue I cited is concerned, yes, I maintain it is an abuse that people are misinformaed about liturgical rules and made to feel bad by others for doing things that are customary in the Latin Church - and have NEVER been changed (i.e. kneeling after communion among others). I won't get into a lengthy description of the liturgy wars in the Roman church, but they do impact not a few American Catholics.

It saddens me that this place which I found so helpful last year amid the struggles our community faced appears to not be as welcoming as it once was. I guess I'll take a cue from Alex and resign from further postings

PAX

Brother,

Please DON"T leave off posting unless you feel spiritually that you need to.

I make no comment on anyone else's postings but I was a Roman-rite Catholic until the age of 21 (age 38 now) and I absolutely hated the liturgical abuses that I saw in many parishes growing up. Not only the aesthetic things like badly chosen music etc but the butchering and ad-libbing of the Eucharistic Prayer along with other liturgical texts. I can recall being ridiculed for even mentioned that such a thing "might" be wrong. I can certainly understand and sympathize with the situation of your friend. That is just terrible. And as Alex can attest I am not a "right-wing" anything!!!
But the Liturgy is for God and it is not left or right to feel bad when things are tampered with.

PLEASE don't leave! It is SO good to see a Benedictine presence on the Board!!!

Peace,
Brian

Dear Benedictine!

I never suggested you should resign from further postings . . .have I?

I have resigned and have threatened to resign from here due to my immaturity, silliness and general personal instability.

Hardly an example for you, or anyone, to follow, am I right?

I love it when you put some people in their places here! (kidding . . .)

I could never get away with it! I'd get lambasted from here to Peoria if I tried!

Seriously though, you've made excellent points and I don't see how any are off base.

(I'd be afraid to invite your critical comments about me - afraid because you would also be right then as well).

You speak as someone bearing legitimate authority to comment on these matters.

I speak as someone . . . well, as someone . . . let's just say I speak . . .

Pax et Bonum!

Alex

Dear Steve,

You've never pulled rank, Big Guy and that's not the point.

I was only coming to Benedictine's defence.

You see, I had to weigh Benedictine and yourself in the balance.

And Benedictine won out!

When you get to be a seminary professor from a religious Order, then the odds will be tipped more in your favour.

Agreed?

Alex