www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Greek Orthodox Parish With Kneelers...!??!

Slava Isusu Chrystu!

I have just been to one... what gives? I realize that the Lain Church has a large sphere of influence, but is this not something you would expect to see an Orthodox Christian speaking to a Byzantine Catholic about (i.e. Latinizations in their parishes due to their "pupet" status to Rome)? (just kidding)

Seriously though... the parish has ALWAYS been Greek Orthodox, so I just wondereed about the kneelers.

IC XC
Crios
<'(((><

p.s.
Do the Greek Orthodox have and direct Eastern Catholic counterpart? Just curious...

The Greek Orthodox church near my house has kneelers. In addition, I know of another church in Alabama that has kneelers. Go Figure.

I can't tell you why just that there are many Orthodox churches that have them.

I guess it shows you how superficial the charge is. Ya, I think it's a Latinization. I've yet to find an Orthodox Church in America without pews and only one without kneelers.

Dan Lauffer :rolleyes:

" I guess it shows you how superficial the charge is. Ya, I think it's a Latinization. I've yet to find an Orthodox Church in America without pews and only one without kneelers."

It's a westernization, for sure. Here more of the Greek parishes than Russian ones have pews and kneelers. Most OCA parishes around here don't have pews (a few do), but all have chairs lined up in the nave. I have never seen either in the old country.

And St. Anne's Melkite Church in W. Paterson, NJ has an organ!!! I know of Orthodox Churches who have organs.

Dear Criostoir O'C:


I was wondering if this "quirk" in the Greek Orthodox Churches is not merely "Latinization" or, as Brendan surmises, "Westernization."

Rather, a thousand years of pre-schism Church unity or "oneness" is long enough for the East and West to afford one to "inculturate" the other, and vice versa.

The wonder in me is that we were once One, free of "cultural bias."


Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Brendan,

What is your idea on the difference between "latinization" and "westernization"?

djs

Well, pews were really introduced into the Latin Church after the Protestant Reformation (and following the Protestant example), so I have some difficulty describing pews as a "latinization" -- but it definitely comes from the West, so it is a "westernization", more properly described ,I think.

"Rather, a thousand years of pre-schism Church unity or "oneness" is long enough for the East and West to afford one to "inculturate" the other, and vice versa."

The problem is that it distorts our worship substantially, and so it's not a neutral thing.

Brendan

The line between East and West isn�t always that strong and there does tend to be borrowing back and forth.

When I was on a lengthy assignment in Cyprus I worshipped in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Limassol. It had a type of folding chair pew that I saw in many of the Orthodox parishes in that island country. They were attached to form the standard rows and were rather cramped. The liturgies were wonderful and the churches full. I was surprised to find that the Orthodox Churches in Cyprus keep the feast days of All Saints and All Souls on November 1 & 2 and that it was on their official liturgical calendar. They celebrated it with a parade and it seemed to almost be a national holiday. Probably a custom that came via the Italo-Greeks.

Closer to home, there are tons of Orthodox parishes in Pennsylvania that use kneelers. Some of the OCA and most of the Johnstown Diocesan parishes hold the same Greek Catholic custom of kneeling that many of our parishes still retain (yes, even on Sunday). Numerous OCA parishes still kneel during The Lord�s Prayer (but I�ve never heard how this custom came about).

When I was living in Poland(in Krakow to be exact} I went to the Orthodox church on Szpitalna St, from time to time and the people though they did not have pews knelt during the singing of the Our Father. The priest was a Bylo-Russian, I think

Kneeling is fairy common in the Orthodox world, in both Romania and Georgia I have seen people kneel at services (albeit this was on weekdays, it still seems likely that at least some of these folks would also kneel at a Sunday liturgy, regardless of the injunctions issued by the Council of Nicea).

Brendan

Many of the older parishes in PA, OH, and NJ in the OCA have pews and kneelers but you will find the majority of the new OCA parishes without them especially in the expanding Diocese of the West under Bishop +Tikhon and NO Kneelers!!! :rolleyes:

"injunction" ?

Canon XX
Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-23.htm#TopOfPage

The language seems squishy soft, and is qualified with a motivating clause (like our 2nd amendment).
I think that we can all agree that the motivating clause "... that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere" is obsolete.

And here's an essay by an Orthodox priest on kneeling:
http://members.aol.com/johnd3/ONE/ResponseKneel0795.html

djs

djs --

I don't want to start a drawn-out discussion on this, but suffice to say that most Orthodox interpret Nicea 20 as an injunction against kneeling on Sundays, and no sharp distinction is drawn between "prayer" and "worship" for this purpose (and in fact the contrary interpretation offered in the linked article seems very strained indeed, as if the Fathers at Nicea intended to regulate private prayer so as to ensure uniformity in private prayer rather than public common prayer, aka, worship -- thank goodness we are not as clericalist in Orthodoxy). Local customs do vary, and the practice on weekdays differs from the practice on Sundays.

Brendan