www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News John Paul the Great's Beatification site

The observations made are interesting indeed, iconophile.

People see a remarkably holy man, and also see that in a number of ways his actions were not what they would have done. Such dissonance can be great food for thought. Unfortunately it too often leads not to introspection - a questioning of one's own actions and attitudes - but instead criticism and devaluation of the other. Lord, it's hard to be humble...

btw, congratulations on your family on it's latest addition.

Dear Ray and Charles,

Your comments about calling Pope John Paul a "saint" before his canonization are well taken.

However, this has gone on in Local Churches, West and East, for centuries.

In actual fact, the Church takes into consideration long-standing cults of veneration of persons (without ANY church pronouncement of canonization) over long periods of time as an indication that such are truly saints of God.

This happened with the many Martyrs of England and Wales whose pictures were painted on the walls of the English College at Rome.

The fact that people prayed before them for years helped in their eventual Beatification!

People have called local worthies "Saint" and "Blessed" and the Church of Rome has, from time to time, decided to make the titles formal and placed them into its calendar of saints.

Jerome Savonarola has been called "Blessed" for years by the Dominican Order and by Florentines.

There is Blessed Alan de la Roche, venerated by St Louis de Montfort and others, when, in fact, the title "Blessed" is an honorific and he was never beatified by anyone, not even by a local bishop.

Il Beato Fra Angelico was always called that, even though he was only recently formally Beatified as was Blessed John Duns Scotus Eriugena.

I've seen lists and lists of these local saints who are so ONLY because of local devotion - these include some Popes who are venerated by locales in Italy but were never beatified.

Pope Liberius is a full Saint in the East - but, at Rome, he was the first Pope not to have been given the honours of the altar.

Charlemagne was canonized by an anti-pope and later his cult was demoted to one of local status and he is called "Blessed Charlemagne" to this day, celebrated on January 28th at Aachen, Germany.

Then there is the famous "Saint Lucifer" of Cagliari in Italy.

He opposed St Hilary in the reception back into the Church of those who gave in to human weakness during persecutions and apostatized.

He was "incapable of tact" as was written of him and he was excommunicated by the Pope of his day.

But when he died, the cult of "St Lucifer" ("San Luciperro" sounds a bit less alarming) saw shrines and churches built in his honour on Sardinia. Rome decreed that his cult was not to go beyond that island.

So titles can be used by people in private prayer and elsewhere all they like. It is part of the Vox Populi which, in the Eastern Churches especially, still figures prominently in any canonization process.

St John Paul the Great, pray unto God for us!

Alex

It is my understanding that acutally that is how saints come to be so - technically. Because the common, everyday people begin seeking their intercession. The people are the ones who begin the process, normally it is not the clergy. After the ground swell of the people it is a pretty sure thing that the holiness of the person is authentic.

Also, isn't that true of some of the dogma's from the East and West. They began with the common folk, praying and gathering because of happenings or beliefs. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truths, he works through the Body of Christ, not just the heiarchy. Of course, nothing can go against Scripture or the teaching magestarium of the Church.

Pani Rose

We can privately seek the intercession of anyone, be it a deceased pope, or blessed Clyde of Pittsburgh. I am simply stating I believe much of what I am hearing for the canonization of JPII is hysterical, overwrought, and sentimental. Not exactly the climate for a rational evaluation of the man's sanctity and lifetime of work.

I think you make a good point here. I know for a fact that a few years ago...there was a process started in a Byzantine Catholic Ruthenian Parish we visited a couple of times in Alaska. This was for the eventual canonization of a really holy Eskimo women in that parish who had died a few years before this. Her son was a friend of my husbands. A few of the people started this with the approval of their parish priest. Not sure where it is now...but I do know they began it...assume they are going through whatever it takes...for as long as it takes.

In Christ,

Porter.

Dear Byztn you said:

Could anyone have effectively evangelized and managed the Church at the same time? I don't know. That would be almost an impossible task for any individual to pull off.

I say:

Pope John Paul II's concern was for humanity, and that's where it should have been. The Church has been managed many times without a Pope.

You said:

As for being a Doctor of the Church, sometimes he taught clearly and lucidly, but sometimes he rambled and lacked a clear focus in some of his writings.

I say: His ramblings came from a higher state of Grace and not easily comprehended by us lesser mortals.

You said:

At times he reached out to others almost to the point of syncretism and one could almost call him a universalist. On the other hand, sometimes he was clearly consistent with traditional Catholic teaching.

I say: To be called 'The Great', one has to have turned history. John Paul II did.

In Christ,

Zenovia

Zenovia, I will wait for the Church - the only competent authority - to decide if he is a saint, and for history to decide if he was "the Great."

Dear Charles,

I too will wait for the Church to decide these things.

It looks like we won't have too, too long to wait . . .

And the Church is not only the Hierarchy - it is the Laity as well.

Fr. Hardon SJ, in his Catechism, mentioned the case of an Italian Archbishop in northern Italy who banned the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

When he did that, the laity in the region all rose up and ousted him!

Rome reviewed the situation quickly and then came to the conclusion . . . that the laity were right.

Thank you for the opportunity to relate that story!

Alex

A nice story, but we live in a different world. That's not the way things work today. As I understand church regulations, anyone is free to venerate whomever they please. That's private devotion. But today, it takes an official act of the competent church authorities to canonize.