www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Warning about new forum

I know its been awhile since I have posted here... Since the beginning of Lent, but I have cut back on my forum use....

But a new forum has opened up, at Catholic Answers... I just want to warn all of you....

Byzantine Catholics are not welcome unless they toe the Latin line... A couple of Latin ex-users from here, those who wish to measure the Byzantine Catholic Church by their Latin yardsticks are there doing just that.... They are also quoteing parts of the Catechism that seems to support their calling Orthodox schismatics and ignoring other parts of the Catechism that show this is wrong...

They also do not spread this schismatic call toward any Western group....

It seems that because I have defended the Byzantine Traditions that I have been banned from that forum....

Just a warning not to waste time there.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

"Every evil screams only one message: 'I am good.'" Fr Alexander Schmemann

Catholic Answers is famous for their anti-Eastern viewpoints. I remember when they ran an article on St Vladimir, and used him to push Latin-trad position. Acting like he became a Latin.

I don't know about them being anti-East, Neil(Irish Melkite)seems to get by, maybe it is presentation.

james

I am shocked that you have been banned. I read some of what you have written (I suppose not everything) and I thought you were doing fine.

Even James got a shot in there. Smile James, I saw your post on the LOTH.

I had my own problems on a different Latin Forum. One of the moderators basically called me a heretic. She was a real cut-and-paste queen, when she ran out of logic she went right for the anathemas. It's like you cannot discuss anything without being shut down. When that happened I was so mad I wanted to 'dox right then and there!

Let's face it, I'm not important enough to be a heretic.

Michael, that sinner

I think most Roman Catholic apologists are too weak on the subject of the east.

They need to differentiate their message from the Eastern Orthodox message. So they basically flush Eastern Catholics down the toilet.

We embarass them, they cannot explain the truth about us so they would rather slip it all under the rug.

To them, we are just Roman Catholics that are "permitted" to have our peculiar liturgy, but make no mistake, we are really just Roman Catholics. This plays into the hands of the Orthodox who want to believe it too, for their own polemical reasons.

Here they go again! **flush** :rolleyes:

I also gave them a "blast" when someone was complaining about the length of the Homily & Liturgy, though it skips my mind :rolleyes: where.

james

Yeah, I'm shocked that a lot of people seem to be very hostile to the East, too. I must confess that I sorta have been sucked into the "Liturgy" section of the forum and that's why I haven't spent any time here for several weeks. Mea culpa. I'm tempted to start a thread about Sacred Music in the East there but I'm not sure what kind of a reaction I'd get... seems that anyone who sympathizes with the East gets blasted by neo-conservative Tradlats or frightening Liberals and Rainbow Sash hippies. I wish that the admins over there would do more to curtail that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's time that Latin Catholics had a forum to go to like this one where we can discuss issues and can answer people's questions... but yeah. In many ways it's not a very Catholic environment.

Is Karl Keating a convert?

James,

Not sure how much longer before I get banned myself. As I mentioned on another thread here, I'm battling a moderator there (the "Super Moderator") over her refusal to capitalize "Divine Liturgy" (I'm taking the issue directly to Keating next).

I did, however, get a concession/apology from one of their staff apologists who acknowledged that quoting the 1917 ed online Catholic Encyclopedia was not an adequate explanation of Eastern Catholicism. She revised her reply to the poster who asked the question.

I too was shocked to discover that David had been banned since I saw nothing in his posts that should have offended or scandalized anyone (especially on a forum that has allowed a poster to twice now explicitly suggest that the Book of Mormon is best suited for use as toilet paper).

All in all, I'd not suggest anyone run over there as an alternative to here. I suspect that I'll drop by once a day or so and watch for queries about ECs and EOs, in the hope that I can make sure accurate answers get out there. But, it's nowhere I'd want to be a regular member.

Welcome back David.

Many years,

Neil

I don't think he is.

Don't get me wrong, Karl Keating has done some great work for the church from a Latin perspective. I also think he tries to show some balance with the eastern churches in his work, but that is informed by his perspective, it might not seem as balanced to us. EWTN has a similar problem.

He also gave Patrick Madrid his start, as far as I know both are cradle Catholics. Regardless I have never seen their work reflect a sensitivity to the Eastern church. On a practical level it would be very hard, they would have to insert qualifiers on a lot of their blanket statements.

Their argumentation seems to be focused on retaining Catholics of the Latin church (am I reading too much into this?), there is a horrible leakage problem there, and they want to bring converts directly into the Latin church. Once a cynic or doubter comes around to accept the line of reasoning, there is a good chance they will become somewhat rigid.

Then they discover Eastern Catholicism, and they really want it to be affirming of all of the decisions they have made up to this point! If what we think contradicts what they expect us to think their reaction is unpredictable, it can get very emotional.

The Latin church is full of dissenters, actually I don't think the dissenters are nearly as vocal as they might be, they form a sort of silent majority. In otherwords they pay mere lip service to church teaching on birth control (for example) and keep coming to mass. Studies have indicated that a huge proportion don't believe in the Real Presence. The catechesis problem is huge, millions of people have nothing more than a grade school education in religion and they think it's sufficient. Religious liberalism is a rampant problem, small very vocal groups are challenging the church on many issues and making public displays of their dissent.

Then we come along and say we don't quite accept their viewpoint and they explode!

The eastern churches have a sort of romantic appeal. We are supposed to represent the lost conservatism of the Latin church they are trying to restore, they love our glorious liturgies and devotion to Mary and we don't necessarily back them up on every single point they demand.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Michael

Dear Coalesco,

My sig says it all.

Oύτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντίδα | Nemo nos diliget non curamus

I think most Roman Catholic apologists are too weak on the subject of the east.

The Latin church is full of dissenters, actually I don't think the dissenters are nearly as vocal as they might be, they form a sort of silent majority.

The catechesis problem is huge, millions of people have nothing more than a grade school education in religion and they think it's sufficient

I realize I am replying to bits of several messages, but I agree with all of the above. I think many Roman Catholic apologists are weak on the Faith in general, not just the East. And for some of the Traditional Catholic apologists, their objections to liberal American Catholicism seem as much cultural, as doctrinal. There is a huge catechesis problem, but have you ever wondered what would happen if the Latins actually did educate their people in religion? As things stand now, many of their members would walk out the door because of the root problem - many of their people don't believe Church teachings. The East has not been adequately explained to most Latins, but it is also, at times, an extremely uncomfortable contradiction to them. Some of the hostility toward the East comes from ignorance, to be sure. But I also think our orthodox, traditional Christianity makes them uncomfortable. We could get along much better with the liberal Latins, if we would just sell-out on what we believe. Then we would be just like them. Well, hooray for the East. Holding fast to our beliefs seems good to me, and I don't mind at all being a contradiction.

I am a Roman Catholic convert from Protestantism who converted much because of the work of Catholic Answers. Karl Keating and others associated with them did much to help me a decade ago on my path to Catholicism. For that I am eternally grateful to them.

That being said, I'm not surprised that their forum has become a Latin-only enclave. The other main Roman Catholic forum (you all know which one I'm referring to) is worse, and I left it after one of my posts was deleted. Why was it deleted? Because I responded to someone who had "broken the rules". What rule? They compared some traditionalists to pharisees! They won't even accept the smallest criticism of Latin traditionalism.

There is not enough time in the day for me to spend time battling with a moderator with a power-complex. I didn't bother with the Catholic Answers thread after I saw some of the same people going over there.

But please be understanding of us Latin brothers and sisters. You can't comprehend the challenge Eastern Catholics present to many Roman Catholics. This is the dirty little secret: the Eastern Catholic Churches are a big "problem" for many orthodox Latin Catholics' conception of the Faith. Why? Because Roman Catholics have emphasized many of our Latin practices so much in apologetic work with Protestants and dissenting Roman Catholics that they have elevated many small issues into infallible dogma in their minds. For example, look at some topics in which East and West see things differently, and consider how a Latin apologist sees it from their experience:

Celibacy of priests
- When a Roman Catholic hears something against this, they assume it is a dissenter or Protestant attacking the very idea of celibacy.

The wording/structure of the Mass
- The assumption here is that one is trying to attack the fundamental nature of the Mass.

Aristotelian logic
- Any questioning of the use of reason or logic in understanding God is looked upon as emotionalism, or "fuzzy theology", due to the crazy heretical theology of many in the West.

And the list could go on. Although most would admit publicly that many of these issues are not dogma; I think in many minds it has become dogma due to the constant attacks against them. It really forces one to stretch their understanding of the faith when you come to see what the Church accepts as "valid" - it is not as narrow as what these so-called apologists accept.

In my personal experience, I have found that cradle Roman Catholics struggle with this more than converts. Many converts have seen the work of God outside the confines of the Roman Church, and so understand that God works beyond the narrow strictures we place on the faith. Many cradle Catholics have never experienced this, and can't see how God can work other than within the definitions already laid out.

This is why the only forums I frequent are Protestant, Eastern Catholic, and Orthodox ones. I love the Roman Church, but their forums drive me crazy!

francis,

I too, stay out of RC forums. I have always suspected that they were full of controversy. The controversy may come from "liberal" or extremely conservative Catholics. The probably are some truly catholic forums out there, but I have not been introduced to any.

Your comment, 'and can't see how God can work other than within the definitions already laid out". is true for so many of us in certain areas of Catholic teaching. If something is "out side the box" of our knowledge of God, we reject it. All one has to do is study the Bible to understand that God often does things "outside the box", both in the OT and NT. While teaching to honor the commandmentsts, Jesus wasn't held bound by Jewish tradition.

I believe Forums attract comitted Christians, but also extremists. When extremist have control of the bulletin board it is time to bail out.

I had a positive introduction to Eastern Catholic churches from my past involvement in the Catholic charasmatic renewal. Then a trusted RC priest raised my interest in the beautiful liturgy of the Eastern Church. After these seeds were planted, and after a number of years, the East helped shape my love a the mystery of Christ and the importance of the Theotokos in God's plan of salvation.

I think that these "learned" RC's who trash the Eastern Churches have never read the V2 document on Eastern Churches nor what the CCC has to say about EC's. They are also poor students of church history.

Christ is our peace.
Mary is our Mother.

Paul

I, too, am absolutely appalled to hear that David has been banned from that forum. I followed pretty much all of his postings and found them to be, from my standpoint, educational and accurate.

One of his postings in particular stands out to me... a RC asked if it was appropriate for an EMHC to use the recipient's name when distributing Holy Communion. The apologist answered with a quoted section from the GIRM (I believe) that indicated it was not. David responded by indicating that in the Eastern Church it was fully appropriate for Father to mention the recipient's name upon distribution, and he even quoted, word for word, the beautiful words that Father uses ("The servant/handmaid of God, so-and-so, receives..." etc.). Many of the RCs were, in fact, very moved by this Eastern practice and said as much after David's post.

Well... apparently not wishing to "concede defeat" at the hands of the East, a second apologist stepped in with the "technicality" that since the original question referred to EMHCs and since the East does not use EMHCs, the question does not apply to Eastern Catholics and the answer stands - conveniently ignoring the actual point of the question, i.e. is it OK to use the recipient's name when distributing Holy Communion.

I considered the use of this EMHC "technicality" by the second apologist to be a childish cop-out, and said as much in a subsequent post in defense of David... guess my days there are probably numbered, too!

All that being said... I still find it to be an appropriate forum in which to make ourselves known. Many of the rank & file RC are downright astounded that we're even out here, having absolutely no experience with the Catholic East! If we don't introduce them to the riches of our theology and traditions, you can rest assured that nobody that's already over there will!

There is a HUGE amount of dissatisfaction among a good number of the RCs over there with regard to liturgical abuses and such. Many, I fear, may even be on the verge of leaving the Church altogether. How great it ts that we may be able to offer them a spiritual alternative without having to leave the confines of our Catholic Church!

a pilgrim