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Well, in defense of my Latin Rite bros & sis's, let me add something that has been pointed out to me (again!) recently by a traditionalist friend - - way too often, when the liturgists have tried to change or eliminate a traditional practice in the Latin Rite Mass - such as kneeling for the Consecration - they will use the argument that "This is the way our Eastern Rite brothers and sisters worship - therefore it can't possibly be wrong."

A lot of abuses in the Latin Rite churches get blamed (unfairly of course!!) on the Eastern Rites. And my friend made the excellent point that, yes, it's great that the Eastern Rites do all these things but we are NOT Eastern, we are Latin Rite, and just as the Easterners are trying to preserve/restore THEIR traditions, we're trying to do the same.

I think he's right and thought it might help you to understand why some of the traditionalists you encounter might have a knee-jerk reaction to your innocent attempts to explain why the Eastern Rite does this or that.

The pastor of my Latin parish always addresses the children whose names he knows by name when distributing Holy Communion, although he doesn't the adults, probably because of the number of communicants. This definitely makes the Eucharist more personal for the kids.

This is the only forum I've ever belonged to or posted on. I think I'll have to go over to this other site and see what's going on. Perhaps an Eastern Catholic "invasion" from this site could set things straight.

My husband has complained to me that Catholic Answers NEVER returns his calls. He used to call occasionally with questions, and they always took a message and had someone get back to him. But within the past couple of years they don't call back.

We have noticed anti-East comments for a few years, even in their THIS ROCK magazine. Patrick Madrid, who used to be one of their top guys, was an RC attending an Eastern Catholic parish. He told my husband he was 'exploring other rooms in the Father's house'. He eventually left Catholic Answers to start his own magazine. Perhaps he was being persecuted for his openness to the East.

Tammy

Be still and know I am God

Now, now folks. We should pray for them and gently admonish that they do not know the teaching of the Catholic Church which is espoused in such documents as Orientale Dignitas, Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Orientale Lumen, Ut Unum Sint, Slavorum Apostoli, the official document of the U.S. Catholic Bishop's Conference, Canon Law, etc. etc. etc.

Remind them what the teaching of the Magesterium is regarding the East, and if they do not wish to accept it, then you can see how "traditionally Catholic" they really are.

Diak,

You are right, of course. However, it has been my experience that many of them cling to their understanding of Church teaching, rather than Church teaching itself. Whenever I would bring up some relevant teaching, it was usually shot down as "not relevant', or (my favorite) "not infallible". Note that this is always those public members on the forum, not the actual organizations (like Catholic Answers).

It is sad, really; especially how they treat those Eastern Christians not in communion with Rome. Should we treat our brothers and sisters this way? I would hope not. And if we should not treat our estranged brothers and sisters this way, it is doubly true for those living in the same house with us!

I have determined one thing: the more I learn about theology and Church teaching, the more often I answer questions with "I don't know".

Well, in defense of my Latin Rite bros & sis's, let me add something that has been pointed out to me (again!) recently by a traditionalist friend - - way too often, when the liturgists have tried to change or eliminate a traditional practice in the Latin Rite Mass - such as kneeling for the Consecration - they will use the argument that "This is the way our Eastern Rite brothers and sisters worship - therefore it can't possibly be wrong."

I have heard that stated before. I fully believe Latins should preserve their traditions, too. In fact, I did a lot of the leg work - drawing up and collection petitions, meeting with the Latin Rite Chancellor, etc. - to help get an approved Traditional Mass in the RC Diocece of Knoxville. I explained to the Chancellor that I am Byzantine, and have no legal standing to request that Mass, but was just helping out some friends. The Bishop was OK with that. So you see, I fully want you to preserve your traditions. But I think that some of the people who want you to imitate us, may perhaps have a different agenda in mind. I don't think they really want to be like us Eastern Rite brothers and sisters. I believe some are just trying to create a church that is more to their liking.

I was reading the posts in this thread and I wanted to add my two cents, so to speak.

Being married to a Traditional Latin Catholic (I know ). They are cranky bunch because of the fact of all the liturgical abuses in their rite, the fact that the Eucharist is being downgraded in most parishes to be thought of as blessed bread, and the rampant liberalism, the inaction of the archbishops to stand up for church teachings (social and not), the embarassment of rampant homosexuality of some of their priests, the child and adult molestations committed, the Benny Hinn type of healing masses (true spectacle), women priests, the Pope kissing the Koran, interfaith religious service (religious relativism) etc. When they loosened the belt so to speak and allowed for the New Mass and softer teachings, many just went rampant.

The Western Church was bleeding and loosing members to the many colors of protestantism but, at least, they remained who they were. The changes in the past 40 years instead of improving them have divided them. So instead of being a "bleeding body" they have become a body diseased.

So the normal reaction to all of this for them is to become extremely rigid and confrontational because they just want all of the abuse and disrespect to stop.

The East wants to offer a hand in friendship, but the LatinTrads are experiencing some sort of war-syndrome. I personally don't believe that they have really any control over their confrontationalism because they constantly need to defend themselves against an onslaught of liberal roman catholics. They are persecuted within their own family.

Then here comes the Byzantines, the new neighbors, who just want to meet the other neighbors ... and there is a drastic Family Feud going on.

And it is true that the liberals do use traditions from the East (some even made up and attributed to the East) to validate drastic changes to liturgy and theology because they cannot validate them out of the "catholic - true church spectrum". And, of course, it bothers Eastern Christians to hear their rantings about the Orthodox. (That is like calling our mother ugly). It's offensive.

We need to pray for them. We need to pray that the Western Rite pulls itself together. That the way of the Episcopalians is not their future.

They need to settle down before we can really interact with them on many levels.

Just some thoughts from a Latin bully's wife

Gina

I want to thank everyone for their support!

The status has changed now, it no longer lists me as banned, now I am only suspended but....

I still have not recieved any messages or emails stating what I did wrong or that I did anything wrong....

Back when I was still welcome I worked with the "Admin" and Karl Keating, they set up a new calendar which I updated though the end of the month, was going to take care of next month this past weekend.

I took the Byzantine wall calendar and entered each Saints day, the readings, and such....

This shows up at the bottom of the forum page under the upcomming events....

Well guess what... That is gone now too....

So I wonder if my suspension has to do with that I was vocal and posted alot... I think I was the most vocal out of all of us there....

But let me say this....

It is nice to be home!

But sadly, my work has placed byzcath.org on the blocked list.. As I usually post at the beginning of the day and at lunch time, I still won't be around as much as I was....


David, the Byzantine Catholic

"Every evil screams only one message: 'I am good.'" Fr Alexander Schmemann

Well said! I totally agree with you! And it's really annoying because the people who say these things are being unfair to the Eastern Rite as well as the Latin Rite Catholics -- they pick and choose only the things they personally like, but won't make a commitment to "the whole enchilada" - one way or the other!

DavidB:

Guess this just goes to show that it will take the Holy Spirit to get Christians together. It won't come from our feeble efforts.

I've studied and lived both as a Latin Catholic and as an Orthodox Christian. We all have need of Christ's Grace and Great Mercy.

From my own experience, however, I don't believe that the average Latin Catholic would ever have gotten to the idea of Orthodox Christians being their brothers and sisters if Vatican II had not come along. While both of our groups can be parochial and subject to an "us vs. them" mentality, it seems to run very deep within the Latin Church, probably because of the large numbers here and the history of discouraging ethnic groups to melt us all together.

For the record, I do not feel comfortable with either those who style themselves traditionalists or those who style themselves liberals in the Latin Church. Actually, given my own childhood of being a Catholic in a mixed marriage and not being accepted by either my Catholic brethren because of my Protestant father or by my father's family because they were against Catholics, I feel most comfortable with those who have been actively persecuted for the Faith. Why? Because it seems to me that they have had the rough edges worn off by persecution and show the most love--like Christ calls us to show to everyone. Maybe since they have "put on Christ" by their suffering they "get it."

So that's why I hang out here and have never even been tempted to look elsewhere. I don't have time in my life for those who have so much anger in their hearts that they cannot see others as brothers.

In Christ,

BOB

P.S.: Take a look at the addition I made to Alex's post under the prayer thread: Forumite's Prayer. As my college advanced composition professor used to say, we reveal ourselves by what we write and by the words we choose. He even went so far as to say that we could stand naked by our choice of words and the thoughts we expressed as we strung them together.

Dear DavidB,

I can't imagine you being banned or suspended from anything.

"Banned" means that you will be back to that forum sharing the faith and Tradition of the Byzantine Church. Or "banned" means that you will leave those well meaning, but misguided brothers, to the prayers of our Lady, who loves all Christians, both East and West.

Best regards,

Paul

Theophan,

As a kid growing up, just around the time of Vatican II, in a very Roman Catholic neighborhood, I was lucky enough to have some Orthodox friends. We were very young, and when the topic of religion would come up, my Orthodox friends would say "We're pretty much the same as you, except we don't believe in the Pope".

The main point was, as young as we were, we knew we shared the same belief in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Not knowing anything about Councils, canons, or any of the polemics, I think we always considered ourselves as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Dear Under Angels Wings,

Wow, you paint a glum picture of the Roman Church.
If you read my post above, I made my First Communion right around the time that Vatican II was implemented. I was just a child, but when I heard the prayers in English, and REALLY understood what was going on at Mass, I loved it. Maybe it was because of my youth, but I LIKED the changes, and from there I've never looked back.
When I attend a Tridentine Mass today it is like a trip back in time, nostalgia. I'm not saying there aren't liturgical abuses or that everything is perfect today, but it wasn't back then either.

I realize none of this has anything to do with the Eastern Churches, and I wouldn't want to see ANY changes to the Divine Liturgy, (except maybe more use of the vernacular where it isn't already used), I just want to point out that Vatican II isn't the monster many make it out to be.

Bill,

Your post is refreshing "Out of the mouths of babes thou hath fashioned praise for Thyself."

Christ is our peace,

Paul

Dear Bill from Latin Rite:

I am glad that you are happy with the changes in the venacular and apparently the parish that you are involved with does not have abuses.

My mother, who was Lutheran, loved the Vatican II changes too. She told me the new Mass now resembled the Lutheran Worship and she could worship with my father. So Vatican II worked out for my family. We attended the RC and Lutheran churches equally (although I must say the Lutherans were far better singers ).

I am very puzzled though because I did not say that Vatican II brought those abuses.

It was the generation - the free love - the pro-choice minded, etc of the 60's era. These people were not only present in the secular world but in our Church bringing about this same "free-spirited" thinking that has landed our culture into the armpit that it seems to be in and opened the door for the abuses to the Mass and the Eucharist.

It is a blessing that that generation did not affect the Eastern Churches as they did the RC ones.

My point was that the LatinTrads feel that they need to defend the liturgy (with its various practices) against their own brethren and from this constant battle, they wind up being confrontational - automatically. They feel that that their liturgy is ancient and has been handed down to them. The new Mass is not the same as the traditional mass. I have read the Orders of Mass myself and they hardly resemble one another.

Eastern Christians should not take offense to this as, I believe, it is more of a knee jerk reaction.

Just as some Byzantine parishes fought latinziation - the LatinTrads feel that the ancient traditions are being removed for more progressive and protestant friendly ones - that's all.

As I said I would not get offended, I just would pray for them.

If they cannot respect one another - how are they going to respect their Eastern Brethren?


Gina