www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Church Slavonic

Incognitus

As someone who does struggle with learning languages [ I could not cope with latin even at School ] I do understand what you say/write. I am trying to learn the Alphabet - but again one of the problems is this lack of hearing it regularly . Though yes I could hear modern Ukrainian on the radio - I would have to have a degree of fluency for that - and I haven't

At present what I hear seems to have no relevance to what I see in front of me - at least transliteration will help that.

Oh - if only there were Ukies still worshipping in Glasgow .

Anhelyna

What an interesting question. I grew up and live in a parish (Central NY) where the liturgy was until about 10 years only in Ukrainian. Our old priest died and we now have a Saturday liturgy in English and a Sunday Liturgy in Ukrainian with our new priest. All that did was split the parish apart - and all the holidays (as we still use the Julian calendar- now with English he celebrates both). I speak Ukrainian fluently so the language thing does not bother me - but it has kept people who were not "Uki" from our church.

Deweydecimal

Dear Anhelyna,
Well, there are some nice recordings available of the Divine Liturgy in Ukrainian - including a couple of lovely CDs from L'viv; I suggest playing them whilst following in the book.

Dear Dewey Decimal,
My condolences; it is never pleasant to see a parish divided by such an issue. The calendar can also have that effect (and, believe it or not, I've seen parishes that claim to use both calendars simultaneously - a clear case of schizophrenia).
Despite having used libraries more or less happily for the past fifty years or so, I've never met a genuine Dewey Decimal before. Already I prefer you to the Library of Congress.

Incognitus

Assuming "liturgy" in the poll question refers to the Divine Liturgy, the Eucharist sacrifice, then we do, on rare ocassions, use OCS. I must confess that this has nothing to do with the clergy or massive numbers of parishioners asking for OCS - it's down to the cantors. Some times we come across troparia/kontakia in the Ruthenian Rescension "Chasoslov" which we have not been able to find in Ukrainian (checking both the Catholic and Orthodox sources we have available). We are of the mind that it is better to sing a tropar in OCS than not sing it at all!

As for English, there is really no desire for it in our parish, especially since the vast majority parishioners are recent immigrants from Ukraine.

Разом нас багато - нас не подолати!

Recent immigrants who do not speak English are another situation altogether. My comments refer to second, third, and fourth generation who only speak English in the fellowship hall after Liturgy and are not really interested in evangelism.

Incogntius,

We might differ as to what a "whole section" (seems a contradiction in terms) is, but never mind.

I can only think of phrases (like "Axios!") here and there in Greek that was left over in the Liturgy as it was translated from Greek into Slavonic. Were there sections (such as the Hymn of the Incarnation or the Cherubic Hymn) left untranslated?

I did not suggest that everyone who sets foot in one of our Churches should learn the Church-Slavonic alphabet! I suggested, and will continue to suggest, that anyone who wants that language to be taken seriously should prove it, by learning the alphabet. It really doesn't take all that long.

Good point. Those interested in learning a Slavic language would find it interesting.

Surprise: there are sources for translations of the Byzantine service-books which offer English texts that are far more complete than those available from Pittsburgh. If you want to support the use of English, make sure that your parish purchases at least one copy of EVERYTHING. If you want to do more than that, trying purchasing a complete set yourself - where your treasure is, there will your heart be.

Just hoping that the new Pittsburg Metropolia website would consider putting online its translations like the Greek Archdiocese has done on its website.

The Germans refer to Church-Slavonic as "Old-Bulgarian". Whether that is warranted is for the scholars to debate. My point remains valid: Church-Slavonic as we now have it was never anybody's vernacular.

How developed were the spoken languages in Eastern Europe in the 9th century? Do we know?

Were not Sts Cyril and Methodius seeking to incarnate the Gospel message and the Church's services into the Slavic language of the time?

More importantly, shouldn't we imitate them in trying to reach our culture today?

There are a few cradle Byzantines in my parish who like Old Slavonic. Trouble is, whenever I've used it as a cantor or gone very traditional (like leading the Ruthenian Christmas hymns from the Liturgy book instead of general favorites like First Noel, etc.), very few people sing. Everyone does learn new English settings that I introduce, however, whether they are cradle Byzantines or not. As a result, I'm inclined to see the use of Old Slavonic as a hindrance to outreach.

I honestly did not expect such a discussion over what I thought was a straightforward poll. Perhaps I should have worded it dofferently. My goal was to get a sampling of the prevalence or lack thereof of the use of Church Slavonic in the Divine Liturgy in this the early years of the new millennia here in the USA.

I have sensed that there is a distinct polarisation of views regarding this subject. As I have learned more of the music and desired to learn more, I found myself referring to the Slavonic texts more often. Gradually I have come to respect what our liturgical ancestors were singing and praying.

As a youngster, I heard many Divine Liturgies in Slavonic (and dialectic recensions: for Incognitus, who has pointed out previously that not all this "slavonic" is true slavonic). I still have some recordings of those Liturgies I remember from childhood . I did not understand all of it then, though some things were taught to us in slavonic like Otce Nas. I later have learned much more and am still learning. Perhaps that is why the subject is close to me. Others who have no such recollection would have presumably no such desire to hear a language from someone elses past.

I personally feel that English should be the "preferred" language for Liturgies and other offices, and that using small regularly occuring responses could be in Slavonic from time to time.
Does it hurt so much to use a Hospodi pomiluji/ Ize Cheruvimi/ Dostojno jest... once in a while?

Steve

(please forgive the lack of inflection/carets due to browser inadequecies)

Doesn't hurt a bit!!

In Christ,
Aaron

Steve,

Our parish does use other languages for responses on a limited basis, such as when doing the 40 Lord Have Mercies. We do 10 in English, 10 in Greek, 10 in Old Slavonic, and 10 in Spanish. We also regularly sing "God Grant You Many Years" in English as well as Old Slavonic. It's when we try troparions or less familiar hymns in Old Slavonic that the singing becomes limited. I'm also inclined to think that no Old Slavonic is better than bad Old Slavonic. when it comes to how much gets sung.

Christmas is also a time of sentimental and nostalgic remembrances, however, so this discussion comes up every year in many parishes, I think, also at Pascha.

My parish uses Slavonic quite a lot. Though on which Sunday it is used, I can never figure out (I'm new to this parish). But usually it will be the Hymn of the Incarnation and the Cherubic Hymn most weeks, at least. I've also noticed that when there are more people in church (say for a baptism) more English is used, but I have no stats to back that up.

A few related notes.

Is using old/dead languages in worship even relevant today? I'm divided.

Much of my family switched from Ukrainian to Roman Catholic because they felt that the Ukrainians' "holding on to" Ukrainain language and customs (in Australia, this is) is no longer relevant... but I've been to many Ukrainian churches in the US where most of the people are "off the boat", so to them it is still relevant.

Latin in the Roman church is more nostalgia these days than anything else. I grew up RC and even went to RC seminary for awhile, so I know latin and got to use it a lot in liturgy, etc, but I found that most of the laity really doesn't know it, except for maybe the "agnus dei" or "sanctus".

Old Church Slavonic is kind of in the same boat as latin. It's nice here and there, but maybe it's not really relevant anymore.

Of course, there are those who believe the use of the vernacular is purely heretical (someone mentioned the Society of St. Pius X in another thread?) for any rite. I think this is garbage, personally--use of the vernacular allows for a better participation in the liturgy. Part of me thinks that praying in a foreign tongue one doesn't understand might get tiresome in the long run, as you don't really know what you're saying--however, most good booklets with the Divine Liturgy in English and Slavonic or Ukrainian have the texts more or less side-by-side, so that problem is solved.

The bottom line, I think the Liturgy should be in English, but doing parts in Slavonic/Ukrainian/Latin/Old Irish even is a good thing, too. We can't let these languages and traditions die for the sake of convenience.

Greek? Well, at the Pontifical Liturgy it is customary to chant the Trisagion in Greek. And I've heard the Hymn of the Incarnation and the Cherubic Hymn chanted in Greek (as well as Ukrainian, in the case of the Cherubic Hymn) during an otherwise largely Ukrainian celebration. "Christos Anesti" is big among Ukrainian choirs, even in Pennsylvania.

Latin? Well, a few bishops still maintain a 19th-century practice of intoning the Psalm verse about the vine in Greek, Latin and Church-Slavonic. A bit flossy, but it's fun.

I do not hold, and have never held, that a lack of Church-Slavonic indicates any heresy!

Incognitus

In our parish there is little interest in singing Old Slavonic. Right or wrong, our parishioners relate to English; if that is where they are most comfortable with it, then that is the language in which we should praise God as a parish community.
A practical option is to use some Slavonic at a Divine Liturgy for a simple holyday. Only the people who truly want to be there are present and there is more opportunity to use "different" hymns or tones.
But generally keep the Sunday Divine Liturgy in the vernacular, except for bi-lingual opening and closing hymns. A Slavonic (or Ukrainian) "chorus" which is short and repeated is very easy to learn.
Paul

I think it is often forgotten that Byzantine churches outside of traditional areas where immigrants settled, are not ethnic. Many people in the South have converted because of their Eastern spirituality and love for the Divine Liturgy, not because of any attraction or link to ethnicity. If the Byzantine churches want to stay ethnic enclaves, they will eventually die, which I understand has already happened in some places. In my area, we are reaching out to anyone and everyone because this spirituality and way of worship are priceless and must be preserved. If that means English only liturgies, then English it is.

byzanTN, I agree

I think that in some places, clinging to ethnicity is hurting the churches (e.g. the Ukrainian Catholic church). In fact, I recently attended Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception Ukrainian Church in Philly and I was one of only 10 or so people there. At the cathedral parish!

I want to clarify that last statement. I don't mean to imply anything negative towards the Ukrainian Church, only that I know of people who find too much clinging to the "homeland" irrelevant to an integrated American/Australian/Canadian, especially for a second or third generation. However, I've also been places (new york city, for example) where the church was full of young and old Ukrainains "off the boat." Context is important, but so is tradition. But I don't think we should focus so much on tradition that we hurt the present.