www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Church Slavonic

I think we could learn a little from those Orthodox parishes which are experiencing growth. They do not offer bilingual services but have the Liturgy entirely in the language of the people they want to reach.

We need to lose our reputation as an immigrant Church and become an evangelizing Church!

The only way that the traditional Christmas hymns will be preserved is if we sing them. Just because the congregation won't sing them is not a reason to stop singing traditional hymns! in a way it would be contrary. Put this way, if we only sing the general favorites what distinguishes us from everyone else. If we capitulate to everyone who walks thru the door, we will likely turn into something akin to the "orthodox Episcopalians" who have a smorgasbord of a worship service that seems to lack any tradition.

Education is the key. We as cantors have a duty to keep many of the traditions alive or be counted among those who care little for tradition. If the congregation will only sing general Christmas hymns/carols and not traditional carols I say fine, they can hear them at any Roman Catholic church! What reason would we have to call ourselves an eastern church if we are not differentiated from the western church?

Everyone, the qustion actually was less about a particular language,but rather how often that language was used in the modern context. Yes, English is the dominant language in our vernacular. The liturgical music we sing was set to Slavonic originally, modified considerably when the first English language translation came into use in the 1960's and will hopefullywith the more recent translation, (if our bishops ever promulgate it), be returned to the traditional musical setting as our ancestors heard it but in the common vernacular of English. We can be both traditional and modern!

Steve,
humble cantor

I once heard the argument on the same line that goes: we must lose our immigrant image and become an American Church, and an Irish one at that!

Nec Aliter, how about Kyrie Eleison? The Latins even still use that. In our parish for Litya we use the ascending/descending Athonite Kyrie Eleison. It is beautiful and very easy to catch on to. It rocks with an eison.

One can still use selected hymns, propers, etc. in OCS and Greek and have the majority of the service in English. The connection with the hieratic language and ecclesiastical heritage is there as well as "accessibility" of the Liturgy.

Steve, we did sing the lesser known Christmas songs- several times, in fact. But converts don't know them, and we don't sing Christmas music long enough for them to committ them to memory. Maybe several years of use will help more folks sing them with the cantors.

Which one's Jim?

If possible, I make copies of the music for the people. It will take less time to learn and more will likely sing by the second verse.

Unfortunately, there isn't yet a english language Christmas carol/hymn book set up that I know of. If there are I'd like to know! loose/stapled sheets don't hold up well.

Steve

Of course what we need first is good English translations/versions. Assembling a book after that is easy. Anyone have any versions to share - good, bad, ugly?

Slight correction - the first translation, music and all,came into use among the Ruthenians around 1954 and 1955 - which means that English has been going among the Ruthenians for 50 years now.

We seem to be dealing with an emotional issue, which moderately surprises me - I can remember the days when the sound of English raised numerous hackles; now it seems that a mere mention of Church-Slavonic does the same thing.

It would be interesting to ascertain how well sales of recorded liturgical music in Church-Slavonic are doing. I don't have that information myself, but Victor Marosan of Musica Russica could probably tell us.

Incognitus

I stand corrected.

Though my understanding was the the 1960's translation was more or less official across the metropolia compared to local translations that appeared earlier.

Steve

Dear Steve,
Please be seated. My correction was slight, and so was your chronological error!

The earlier translation wasn't altogether local; it was published, if memory serves me correctly, by the Ss Cyril and Methodius Seminary Press, with the Imprimatur of Bishop Nicholas. There were some musical settings of Ruthenian chant printed to go with this translation, and it was used, more or less, until the 1965 translation came out.

A similar text was published in Collegeville, of all places, and attributed to Father Basil Shereghy, so it is possible that he had a hand in the Pittsburgh version.

Incognitus

I have a copy of a musical setting of the English Divine Liturgy used at the Uniontown Otpust in the late 1950s. I'd have to dig it out and check, but I think that the texts were very similar to the translation used in the prayerbooks of that time.

I'm a new member & just posted a query about Church Slavonic in Poland in the Worship section of this forum.Currently I'm researching liturgical languages among the Orthodox & Greek Catholics in Poland.

In Poland right now you will find a very similar discussion going on among the Orthodox. The Polish Orthodox Church officially uses Church Slavonic in the liturgy (EXCEPT in Wroclaw, where most of the liturgy is in Polish! - only Hospodi pomiluj is rendered as Kyrie eleison). In all other parishes of the Polish Orthodox Church, the homily is supposed to be in some blend of contemporary Russian & Church Slavonic, but most believers will say that the homily is usually unintelligible. Because of historical reasons, some Orthodox are opposed to using any Russian in their churches. There is a growing minority of Orthodox in Poland that claims Polish ethnicity & speaks Polish.

I'm interested in disucssing this topic with your members.

One thing we have to remember - there is no no single "correct" decision on liturgical languages. People have different needs & interests. I personally prefer Church Slavonic over English. My favorite pastor over the years knew it quite well (and with the Rusyn dialect he grew up with in New York, he could manipulate around just about any of the contemporary Slavic languages). But also I recognize there's bad sides to Church Slavonic - lack of comprehension among parishioners, sometimes a certain sense of obsession or pride in those who are able to pray or sing the language that has nothing to do with religion, etc.

Yet in my heart I have this hidden conviction that God prefers we pray in Church Slavonic. I know there's nothing rational about that feeling - but still it exists. In my perfect world, the entire parish would meet at least once a week to study & practice Church Slavonic. It amazes me that churches don't organize courses for those who would like to study the language. In that perfect world, every parishioner would share my deep interest in languages & my reverence for Church Slavonic.

The problem with language is that by its nature it divides people. On any given linguistic issue there's scores of opinions.

I plan to publish my research on liturgical languages in Poland. My conclusion is going to be something like these: there's many opinions on what should be the language used in church & those opinions are shaped by ethnicity, social & cultural background, talent for learning languages etc etc. There's no simple solution for Orthodox Polese who are debating the very same issues you have been discussing here.

Stojgniev

Joe,

Glad you got the message . Actually, the formal announcement of recent archeological evidence that all Slavs are really Irish is scheduled for public release on St. Patrick's Day, but we don't mind you knowing a bit early. This way, you'll have time to stock in some poteen and be ready to raise a glass in the direction of Tara

Many years,

Neil

I have a question on English liturgies in the U.S. I saw the post above by Mr. Incognitus that mentioned early dates.

I should mention that I am an ethnolinguist, so I am interested in cultural phenomena that relate to liturgical languages. I mentioned my love for Church Slavonic - that's just a personal preference; I don't have any "agenda" & I respect everyone's opinion on liturgical languages. And I expect lots of friendly disagreement anytime the topic comes up.

Does anyone know if anything has been published on the history of Eastern Christian liturgical languages in the 20th century?

Years ago I read something about Bishop Elko, some insinuations about controversy, with a reference also to liturgical language. I wish I could remember where I read it. I would like to know how English was introduced in the Ruthenian parishes, who made the decision, what was the chronology of the introduction.

Does anyone know when & where English liturgies were introduced among Ukrainians in the U.S. & Canada?

In Poland Ukrainian replaced Church Slavonic in "the early 1990s." Already most people there have forgotten the details. (One goal of my research is to record the facts for scholars & future generations). Today in Poland, Ukrainian Greek Catholics & members of the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches use Ukrainian in their liturgies. I'm still trying to get exact details on the Greek Catholic Lemko parishes in Poland that still use Church Slavonic. Also, there are a couple of priests in the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine who came under the influence of Archbishop Lefebre's (sorry for mispelling) & introduced "traditional" services in their parishes, in Church Slavonic. It was in the news recently & there was even an article on the official website of the UGC Church.

I will be grateful for any information on the introduction of English in American liturgies!

Stojgniev