www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Evangelicals Maintain Pagan Customs

Well ... most, if not all, Western Christians (and a good number of Eastern Catholics) maintain the Roman practice of the father of the bride 'handing over' the bride at the wedding.

Many Evangelicals make much ado about Catholics and Orthodox incorporating non-Christian customs, especially those 'traditions of men' they are so worried about.

Yet ...

Nowhere in the Latin ritual is there mention of the 'handing over of the bride' during the wedding.

May I ask what this is all about? How do we respond to the Western Catholic and Evangelical and Protestant practice?

Comments?

Joe

I bring this up because of recent discussions with an Evangelical who maintains that their services are devoid of non-Christian traditions.

Joe

Joe,

The this takes place in the GOA also as well as our own Churches. Despite its pagan origins as well as the veil's, people simply don't understand in that way. It is now a cultural and sentimental custom that does no harm. American girls want their father to give them away, period. I never heard anyone call it handing over nor have I ever heard anyone consider it a father handing over his property to another.

So in a mixed marriage I can see no harm in allowing it even in the Byzantine Ritual even though it is technically not what is called for.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Lance,

So, sentimentality allows us to do things during liturgy that has no meaning?

If this is OK then our bishops should acknowledge sentimentality with a liturgical and/or theological meaning and not just blindly incorporating it.

It is our tradition, Lance, that the priest greets and escorts the bridal couple to the altar with lit candles (a form of baptism), no?

Do we allow ourselves to accept sacraments in church un-escorted?

Joe

Joe,

"So, sentimentality allows us to do things during liturgy that has no meaning?"

In this instance where a cultural custom is so engrained, does no harm to the ritual, and refusal to allow it cause couples to get married in the Latin Church and subsequently keep attending the Latin Church, which I have seen happen many times, yes.

Many things that occur in the Liturgy have no meaning unless one attaches meaning to them. The entrances were once simply bringing the Gospel book from the safety depsoit building and the offerings from the prep kitchen so to speak. As for having no meaning I think it has great meaning for the bride and her father, because it has no meaning to ritual purist scholars does not mean it lacks meaning at all.

"It is our tradition, Lance, that the priest greets and escorts the bridal couple to the altar with lit candles (a form of baptism), no?"

Yes it is. Is it not also our tradition to address the ordained with their proper title?

"Do we allow ourselves to accept sacraments in church un-escorted?"

Yes, all the time. I've never seen anyone escorted to Communion, Reconcillation or Anointing. They simply que up and approach the priest. Not unlike a wedding procession.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Does anyone know where this custom originated? Just because it's pre-Christian doesn't make it pagan, it may turn out to be pre-pagan, or even a rural development...

It is probably a throwback to the old days when women had pretty much the legal status of children and where dear old dad giving her in marriage was like giving away a beloved bit of chattel.

I always contrast "who gives this woman in marriage?" to simply having dear old dad walk his daughter down the aisle.

I was married in a Roman Catholic church and my dad walked me down the aisle. A caring father is the most important man in a young girl's life, after all, and having him walk the bride down the aisle is more of a testament to family values and fatherhood in modern times. Men are pretty much ignored in the social aspect of weddings, if you haven't noticed, so it is nice to have a great dad in the spotlight just for a brief moment.

Dear All,

As far as I know, a daughter is protected and taken care of by her father until she becomes married. So the father symbolically is giving away his 'responsibility'.

As for the Church adapting pagan customs, it was really the only way that Christianity could come about. It seems the Evangelicals forget that it was a pagan Greek world out there. If the Church didn't adapt to the cultural modes of the times, it wouldn't exist today. And if Christianity didn't exist today, what would the Evangelicals be preaching about?

Tell them to think about that one.

Zenovia

I have noticed a lot of Evangelical "Churches" with rock bands, video projectors, light shows, etc. Sounds like modern pagan customs to me.

John
PIlgrim and Odd Duck

My bride and I walked down the aisle together, which is liturgically proper.
I wouldn't fret it too much if others opted for the more American custom of the Dad walking the bride down the aisle...
-D

Dear Michael; as Annie stated the custom goes back to the old days, as a matter of fact, if I recall correctly, to the days of the early Roman Republic. Pursuant to Roman Law, inasmuch as the Pater Familiae had the potestas, or power, over his children, specially his daughters, he had to "give" his daughter to the groom. Also the custom of crossing the door with the bride being carried on her husbands arms is a tradition that predates Christianity, it meant that the bride started to be a part of the groom's family and therefore she was protected by the groom'f family gods ("lares dei").

Hope this was of any help.

God bless.

Dear Friends,

In fact, the entire Western practice of having the bride and groom "give" the Sacrament of Matrimony to each other with the Church there to bless their union comes from an adaptation to the pagan Roman civil wedding practice.

Couples in the western Roman Empire went before a pagan Roman judge to exchange their vows and sign the civil register, each having the same responsibility to swear their vow of faithfulness etc.

They were then considered "married" and went before a Christian minister for a blessing.

In the East, the Mystery of Crowning is given to the couple by the Bishop or priest directly.

Also, did we know that the term "marry" comes from the "Hail Mary" that was sung at the end of the marriage ceremony in the West?

The rite was not completed until the "Ave Maria" was sung at the end.

At this point, the couple was truly "married" i.e. the ceremony was over and they were husband and wife.

From this practice came that of the family Rosary that couples were to say daily and the Irish developed the "hearth rosary" as a reminder to do this.

If you ever need useless information, you know who to ask!

Alex

I was protected and cared for by my mother and my father, so why is only the father recognized in this way? Why not let both parents give her away? (A practice which, I understand, is actually becoming more common. )

Webster's New World Dictionary, Second College Edition traces the English word "marry" back to the Latin, "maritus," meaning "husband" or "married"; and farther back to the Indo-European "meri," meaning "young wife" and related to "meryo," meaning "young man."

The following site...

http://www.memorare.com/mary/marianprayershistory.html

...dates the prayer only as far back as the 7th Century, but not appearing "frequently" until the 11th and 12th Centuries.

The Encyclopedia Britannica suggests that the prayer wasn't in "general" use until the end of the 14th Century.

--tim

So the mother had no responsibility in her upbringing? Why doesn't the mother share in the 'handing over of the property ... err, bride?"

Joe