www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Restore Hagia Sophia

Amin i Amin!!!

Alexandr

We have a small one in Homer Glen. Maybe not. My brother had the same idea. I think we could build Hagia Sophia west but nothing can take the place of the real thing, can it?

CDL

I'm sure that all the muslims in hell would agree with you!

Alexandr

It's at moments like this I seem to feel that the Church is people and not old buildings. They have driven almost everyone away who would have worshipped there. A building with no people is not worth the bother. There are so many old basilicas in the lands of northern Africa and the the eastern Med that are (or were) also wonders that have any people to use them anymore. I feel it is all too late for Hagia Sophia. They kicked the Greeks and Bulgars out but they have also transplanted Turks in to replace them, to make sure they have the population numbers.

And the woman with 12 stars around her head ... with the moon at her feet

MOST HOLY THEOTOKOS PRAY FOR US!

byzanTN you wrote:
If it were decided to return these items of question to the East is there some other place of safety in lands generally considered Orthodox which would have a universal connection among most of the Orthodox Churches? How about on or near (in case female tourists are a problem) the Holy Mountain of Athos?

I threw in the Ukrainian Catholic properties because that's generally the first reaction I've seen from Catholics in cyperspace debates when those of the Orthodox faith bring up items taken from the the sack of Constantinople.

Pavel Invanovich you wrote:
I suppose it's because whenever I see Hagia Sophia mentioned it's usually been in the context of the items residing in Rome from the sack of Constantinople. The idea of returning Hagia Sophia itself is rather novel.

Yet if the Vatician needn't return property that many Orthodox consider stolen since it occurred centuries past and didn't directly confiscate it, why is Turkey obligated to return Hagia Sophia itself?

If one person steals a house, a second person steals the art work in the house then gives it to a third person who knows it's stolen--is not the third person obligated to return said art work as much as the first person should vacate the home itself?

(moderators, please feel free to move or delete my post if it's too far off topic)

Why do you keep on going on about "the Vatican". What part of they were not involved in the attacks on the remnant of the Eastern Roman Empire is not understood. Why is "the Vatican" responsible for the actions of the Republic of Venice and other countries. Why do you think they were going to share their loot with the Pope, so he could stick in his museum?

Hi folks,

Please don't throw stones at me for what I'm about to say something that might offend anyone.

But, I wanted to say that I hate to say this, although the sacking of Constantinople was the most horrible thing committed by a Christian brethren during that day, I have to say that it's a good thing it happened that way, even though it was horrible.

Why? Because if these stupid looters didn't take stuff, all of these precious relics, artifacts, religious items would have been FOREVER lost and destroyed by the Muslims!!! Think about it!

Both situations are not good. But some of these stuff are NOT lost forever, thank G-d. The Vatican has it and can always been returned back to Constantinople whereas the stuff the Muslims destroyed or took would never ever be returned, ever.

So, let's not too be hard on the Church of Rome at this day and age (especially many apologies were issued by the Church of Rome) so let's rather thank G-d that it's not forever lost or destroyed and FORGIVE just as a true Christian would. Look at the positive rather than the negative.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Pavel Ivanovich you wrote:
I guess because they're still holding the "loot" that many Orthodox I've met in my cyperspace travels consider stolen property and want returned. Are the Orthodox I've encountered who consider these items as stolen wrong?

It would help me if there any formally stated positions on this subject from the Orthodox Church. Has any Orthodox functionary asked for the spoils of Constantinople to be returned?

Hi SPDundas

I don't disagree with this. Yet, I've met many Orthodox on the internet who stated they will not accept Rome's apologies till the spoils are returned. Of course I'm talking about rank and file people I've met on various forums, I would like to know if there's any official position of the Orthodox Church on this.

I have a feeling that if everything were given back, there are those who would find something else to bitch about. Some folks couldn't be happy in Heaven. Saint Bitchnmoan preserve us. So much stuff has been taken during wars and moved elsewhere, just trying to figure out who rightfully owns what would be daunting.

With the precarious position of the Ecumenical Patriarch in a Muslim country, the 'spoils' of ecclesiastical history should NOT be given back.

At times, there is a certain amount of bantering around in the Greek Orthodox world, of the Ecumenical Patriarch being moved to a more friendly and neutral country. However, one of the negatives of this idea is that all the historical ecclesiastical treasures contained in the small complex of the Phanar would be Turkey's property, and would not be able to be moved.

Alice

I guess...I have a hunch...I have no details but want the things I dont know about returned. That is a very broad generalisation to be making specific demands about. Those items are probably all over the place by now and I would suspect that most of the 'loot' would have always been in private hands. You also seems to be unaware that all church property was confiscated in 1860 by the Italian Kingdom and the current Italian Republic is still the owner of almost all the Monasteries, Cathedrals and Churches all over Italy. An example is the 1000 yr old Byzantine Catholic Monastery at Grottaferrata it and it's library are the property of the Republic. In fact the monastery library is a 'public library' and all scholars (male and female) may go throught the monastery to get to the library. The Monks are very lucky they are not paying rent, or sharing their monastery. We can't turn back history and returning Items when correctly identified (not a guess or I think so) is not so easy as it may seem at. You and I both live on land stolen from others. I dont think either of us is planning to move off that land and give it back to the decendents of those it was stolen from.

Oh! What is an Orthodox Functionary?

Dear Chance you said:

I say:

These people are talking nonsense. The 'spoils' cannot be given back to Constantinople, so where would they be given? Greece? If she did take them, then what about the other Orthodox? Wouldn't they complain?

No doubt it's just one more excuse for those who are always looking for something to gripe about. In a way, it reminds me of the Muslims. Always complaining about something. :rolleyes:

Zenovia

Now to say a little more. Let's just thank God that the Vatican exists. Just imagine something happening to it. Well it did happen to Constantinople, and now it's gone. So I wish all Orthodox would just accept it, and be grateful that they can still go to Italy and see so many Roman and Byzantine treasures. And I mean treasures...dating back to the time of Christ.

Zenovia