www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Cardinal Avery Dulles

I think you are right on this. In earlier times, most Cardinals were from the nobility, so the naming convention fits. It only sounds strange today because people have last names. Royals tend to not have last names, but belong to royal houses. We really need to ask the crown prince of Canada, but he's away for now - hmmmm, is it because of Lent, or is he helping Camilla with the wedding? Inquiring minds want to know.

"Back in the day" when I was a journalism major, the AP Stylebook said that "Cardinal Joseph Bernardin" was correct usage, not "Joseph Cardinal Bernadin." The latter was deemed archaic, as in "Alfred Lord Tennyson."

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Actually Cardinalate is governed by the Treaties of Vienna (1815) and Versailles (1918). Cardinals are to be treated under international law as princes of a ruling house.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

While the styling of Cardinals' names indeed follows the conventions of royalty, the AP and most other journalistic and style manuals deem the usage to be archaic and it is abandoned even in most Vatican documents in recent years.

As to the cardinalate being "governed" by the Congress of Vienna (not at all by the treaty of Versailles) and cardinals being accorded any special status under international law -

The Congress of Vienna afforded cardinals honorific recognition status vis-a-vis precedential seating, etc at official functions and so forth.

But, as far back as the 1917 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia, generally an absolute triumphalist work, you can read that the privilegium fori (which afforded the clergy a special tribunal in civil and criminal causes before an ecclesiastical judge) was even then maintained as a fiction by the Vatican and not upheld by the civil authority of any nation-state.

A year or so ago, being tired of repeated insistent references to the "special status" of cardinals, I reviewed primary British, Irish, and Canadian legal sources, as well as the US Code, and secondary Spanish, German, Italian, and French legal sources. There is absolutely no privilege accorded to the cardinalate in any of these countries' civil or criminal legal systems, nor any reference to the princely nature of their arterial systems.

In short, my advice to those of the red hat, then as now, don't shoplift and get caught, at least in any of the above nations, although you may be able to get a parking ticket overlooked in Rome.

Many years,

Neil

Shlomo Ayo (Brother) Neil,
As to the Treaty of Versailles, it does reafirm the rights outlined at Vienna. On this, I am firm on since I wrote on of my history disertations on WWI and the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

As a side fact, did you know that an Irish man was Chancellor of the Empire in the 1800's?

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Chist is risen!

Good afternoon Nicholas. The Code of Canon Law requires that all persons who are created cardinals are to receive episcopal ordination: Canon 351, 1: "Those promoted as cardinals are men freely selected by the Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of the presbyterate and are especially outstanding for their doctrine, morals, piety and prudence in action; those, however, who are not yet bishops must receive episcopal consecration."

Cardinal Dulles and the other priests created cardinals in the consistory of 21 February 1998 each asked for and received a dispensation from receiving episcopal ordination. BTW, Cardinal Tucci was not yet 80 at the time of his creation as cardinal. He turned 80 two days short of two months after his creation.

You mentioned Cardinal Tomas Spidlik, S.J. He, too, requested a dispensation from receiving episcopal ordination and his request was granted. On the other hand, the other three who were priests on the date of the announcement of the consistory - Gustaaf Joos, Georges M. Cottier, O.P., and Stanislaw Nagy, S.C.J. - all received episcopal consecration prior to the consistory in which they were created cardinals.

Peace,

Charles

My word. There must be very few people of whom it can be written that "He turned 80 two days short of two months after his creation."

Incognitus

Incognitus:

Yes, they are very few and they are called "Cardinals" and they belong to an exclusive all-male "College!"

Amado

ROFL. Good thing this doesn't happen often - it would wreak havoc with the Social Security system.

It is a hold over from the Middle Ages.

Cardinals, like Bishops or Feudal Nobility were addressed by their See or Fiefdom.

So it would be something like

Francois Cardinal Lyons, Migel Cardinal Madrid or George Cardinal Canterbury

On the secular side, someone would be called Edmond Duke of York, or William Baron Sudsbury

Using the last name in place of the See name is a more modern variant on that old custom.

So what's wrong with being archaic?

Incognitus