www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Questions from a seeking protestant.

Please forgive this somewhat rambling introduction.

My name is Ryan. I am the married father of five (soon to be six) children seeking to be faithful to Christ and my family. I was raised as a Baptist and made a transition to a more liturgical protestantism several years ago, but seem to have outgrown my church.

By outgrown, I mean my view of the nature of the Church and my understanding of the sanctity of life.
As for the first: I believe that several hundred years of fully seperate Christian communions calls into question (though does not entirely annul) the right of any group to describe themselves as the "one true Church of Christ." I categorically reject the individualist solution of many former protestants of starting my own "true church." That's how we wound up with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists etc. Not surprisingly, I have not been encouraged in my inquiries by the elders of our church.

My view of the sanctity of life has gone through some transition as well. When we married, my wife and I had very strong views against birth control; over time, these were eroded away but were renewed by some events I may relate at a later time if appropriate. Just as importantly, I have come to have serious reservations about the propriety of unquestioningly supporting American military action throughout the world (a hallmark of protestant America).

I lean toward the Eastern Rite Catholic for a number of reasons, not least of which is their stance of receiving infants as full communicant members. My children (aged 2 - 10) have all been baptized and are permitted to partake of the Eucharist. This would clearly be an impossibility in the Western Church for the younger three (possibly four, depending on the parish) and for no good theological or historical reason as far as I have been able to tell.

In Christ

Ryan,

You are in the right place. Might I suggest you start with these videos:
https://www.byzcath.org/Faith-and-Worship/Videos.htm

The first video is the best.

Yours in Christ!

Welcome, Ryan. We look forward to your presence here.

Ryan,

Welcome. It is clear that you have given much thought to this. We welcome thoughtful inquiry. I second Ray's affirmation of the various videos that are linked to our sight. It's an exciting journey you are taking and I believe you will find that being an Eastern Catholic can be very exciting as well.

CDL

Ryan,

You are almost exactly one year younger than me and have the same name as my "little" brother, and have one more child than I do. I think we already have much in common, so I welcome you to the Forum!

I read your post a couple of times, but I couldn't find any questions though. I await your questions. Again, welcome!

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

First, I have observed that there seems to exist within the Catholic community a certain degree of debate regarding the status of those outside the Catholic Church. Assuming for the sake of argument that my alignment with a reformed church is in error, what is the nature of that error?

Before you answer, allow me to set the stage for it: I was taught a very narrow view of Christianity as a child. We accepted some reformed people as Christians but in gross error, Catholics were beyond the pale.

I won't bore you with the details, but this became a belief that the Catholic Church was in gross error, but many Catholics were saved.

Thanks to a book by Douglas Wilson (a protestant no less), "Reformed is not Enough," and the teaching I received in the Church I now attend, I have come to recognize that my view of "the church" and "Christians" was far too narrow. What I now hold to is that I must recognize anyone who has received a Trinitarian Baptism and is not in open rebellion against Christ and His Church as objectively a Christian.

Now here is the sticky point: I am at this time, not a member of the Catholic Church. Following from the assumption described in the first paragraph, am I therefore outside of the True Church and at least in gross error if not condemned? Or is my position more like that of the Corinthian believers? Am I in a True Church, but one that is merely far short of the full expression of what Christ's Church is to be? Or am I somewhere in between?

In Christ, Ryan

Hi Ryan.

To spin your question another way around (which I can't help, being a Catholic etc) I don't know that the term a True CHurch is appropriate..there is one true church, but one in which non-Catholics have a relationship with/participate in (from my reading of the documents of Vatican II).

So it's not as simple from my perspective as saying you're in, out or between. If you were to be received into the Catholic Church, you should not have to be baptised again; your baptism is accepted under the principle of economy. So in some sense baptism is a function of the Holy Spirit and whatever the setting of its celebration it in some way initiates a new relationship with that Spirit. The receipt of other sacraments such as confirmation in the Catholic Church furthers participation by an individual in that church. Those in protestant churches who do not receive those sacraments remain outside of Catholicism but still participate in a share of the gifts of the ONE Spirit.

That's my take on the current praxis in the Catholic CHurch of receiving converts and the teaching on seperated brethren in the docs of VII. Hope it's not too vague or badly constructed as to mislead on my intented point..

Ned

Ryan said:
<<Now here is the sticky point: I am at this time, not a member of the Catholic Church. Following from the assumption described in the first paragraph, am I therefore outside of the True Church and at least in gross error if not condemned? Or is my position more like that of the Corinthian believers? Am I in a True Church, but one that is merely far short of the full expression of what Christ's Church is to be? Or am I somewhere in between?>>

With Christian love, but also with a desire to clarify things, I would like to respond to your questions.

Through baptism we are all incorporated into the one Church as there is only one Body of Christ. ("For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Cor. 12:13)

Yet, we know that throughout history there have been schisms and heretical deviations among Christians. And these have harmed the unity of the Church, and in the case of heretical fracturing, access to the fullness of what Christ offers to us through His Church is lacking.

The Church officially calls "Churches" those communities of Christians that have maintained apostolic succession and the fullness of the sacramental life. Therefore, the only real Churches are Catholic and Orthodox. Non-Catholilc/Non-Orthodox Christian bodies are known as "ecclesial communities". Ecclesia means Church, but the use of the term "ecclesial communities" implies the incomplete nature of these communities. i.e, they lack apostolic succession, the fullness of the sacramental life, & the fullness of apostolic orthodox faith.

The apostolic ministry of the apostles which is passed on through the mystery (sacrament) of the Laying on of Hands (ordination) is essential to the nature of Christ's Church; this is also true of the seven-fold holy Mysteries, the orthodox faith, and of the fellowship in love as well. Anything less is less than the will of Christ.

But this does not mean that non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christian are necessarily devoid of all grace. On the contrary, as the 2nd Vat. Council said, the Church rejoices in the fact that, in His loving-kindness, provides real elements of truth and sanctification to those who give themselves to Christ in faith and love, even if they are not yet in full communion with the Church.

Yet, the Church is conscious of her orthodoxy in faith and in worship, and is therefore required to invite all to unity within her, to humbly call all to the true faith.

Oops! In the second to the last paragraph I meant to say: "God, in His loving-kindness, has provided..."

Welcome, Ryan!

I'll try to address this very good question in plain English:

No validly baptized Christian is completely outside the Church... we'd say that you're in imperfect communion with the Church, by virtue of that valid baptism.

Hope that answers your question!

God bless,

Karen

Thank you for the quick responses!

Question #2

Protestant doctrines:

From my perspective, many of the alleged differences between protestants and Catholics has been the result of semantic equivocating.

Case in point: transubstantiation, real presence and consubstantiation (we won't consider Zwingli's memorial view now accepted by the vast majority of American protestants both liberal and conservative).

What we know from scripture: in the Eucharist, we feed upon Christ's flesh and blood, determining how or why this is the case seems to go beyond any scriptural evidence.

I understand the difference between the doctrines, but it seems to me that trying to distinguish between them tends to move into knowledge that is God's alone, much like trying to determine who are wheat and who are tares in the Church. In time, some will make themselves known by their fruit. God will purify His Church, but we have no right to go rooting out tares prematurely - we will inevitably begin uprooting wheat.

I could say something similar about the the doctrines of grace (and that horribly misleading TULIP acrostic).

Ryan

Ryan said:
<<I understand the difference between the doctrines, but it seems to me that trying to distinguish between them tends to move into knowledge that is God's alone, much like trying to determine who are wheat and who are tares in the Church.>>

The mystery of God's power is beyond comprehension, yet He has revealed enough to us that that we might know there is a difference between "consubstantiation" and "transubstantiation" and that "consubstantiation" does not reflect the Church's constant understanding of the Eucharist.

The Church's understanding of the Eucharist is reflected in the testimony of the holy Church Fathers of apostolic and post-apostolic times. This understanding is that what we receive in Holy Communion is the very body and blood of Christ. What we are receiving is Christ, and in no way bread and wine.

The term transubstantiation has a greek predecessor and equivalent: metaousiosis. Both terms mean that the essence/substance of bread and wine are changed into the essence/substance of the living and life-giving body and blood of Christ. These terms are not explanations of how all this comes about. That mystery is beyound human thought and explanation.

Ryan,

You want to read this document:
DOMINUS IESUS [vatican.va]

It explains all your questions. It might be difficult to read. Therefore, if you have questions there are several priest and deacons whom I am sure will be happy to address them.

Yours in Christ!

Ryan,

In answer to your questions:

1. You might think of it like this, those Churches that have valid Bishops are like people who are on a yacht driven by the officers who are the Bishops. Those who are not on the yacht, ie other Christian communities maily Protestants and Evangelicals are like people in row boats which are connected to the yacht by strong ropes which are symbolically like Trinitarian Baptism. (This would be so much easier if I could draw a picture like in the old gray St. Joseph Catechism!) And you my friend are a person shimmying up the rope to get into the yacht!

Now the rest of the people who reject Christ are those who have jumped overboard into the shark infested waters. As long as you are on the yacht or are in one of the rowboats you should be fine. But, there is the possibilty of a wave that could knock you out of the rowboat into the shark infested waters, so the only safe place is in the yacht with officers who know what to do and where they are going (Apostolic Bishops.) In other words, you'll be saved in one of the Apostolic Churches, the possibility of salvation is lessened the futher you get from them. Yet God can save whomever he wishes!

2. In the Holy Eucharist the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. Check out the 6th Chapter of St. John's Gospel, many left Our Lord because they thought that He went too far. Yet He said to the Apostles, "Do you also want to leave?" This is no metaphor, if it was he would have said something like, "Hey guys it was only a figure of speech!" Furthermore, the figure of speech "eat my body and drink my blood" in Semitic languages has the connotation of persecuting someone, so I doubt that what he said was a figure of speech. The Lutheran notion of Consubstantiation is wrong and so is the Zwingilian notion of a Memorial.

We will be attending St. Anne's in SLO tomorrow, I will speak to Fr. Idranyi after the service (that was a foregone conclusion before I ever posted, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't caught completely off-guard by anything).

God Bless,
Ryan