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This thread sure has zig-zaged from the 1st post!

I want to know how much of this thread is true.

Frank C said new music on Sept. 1. Is that true???
This is the first time I've heard about it. Is it only for the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh? Or is it for the entire Pittsburgh Metropolia? I'm asking because if it also includes the Van Nuys Eparchy, then it includes me because I'm in the Van Nuys Eparchy, BUT I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT.

Katie g,

I for one like the new music, the old music, the slavonic prostopinije and choir music. I was, am, and will be a Byzantine Catholic. I grew up with slavonic only liturgies as well as the then relatively new english grey pew books. Over the years I have seen the music grow and improve from the rough handwritten sheets to the easier to read typeset sheets that Cantor John (vernoski)sends out. Even the sheets Cantor John sends out differ in the settings, generally corrections and improvements.

I a word, from a cradle Byzantine; give the "new" music a chance.

Steve

I can no longer remain silent as I read the assaults taking place in the Byzantine forum. Where are the Christian attitudes? Where is the thirst for truth and knowledge? Here's an idea for all the people complaining or having misgivings about singing our ancestral prostopinije, with the English translation that the Liturgical Commission has been working on so diligently over the past years. How about attending this year�s Metropolitan Cantor�s Institute � or at the very least, encouraging your cantor to attend, or encourage your priest to send a representative? Five or six Saturday�s in a year is an insignificant sacrifice to make in order to continue our Byzantine traditions. It is unbelievable the number of cantors in the Pittsburgh area not taking advantage of this resource which was instituted at the request of our beloved +Archbishop Judson.

I do not want this to come off as a public service announcement, but what I have learned at the seminary over the past five years has not only given me knowledge in liturgical music that I could not have learned anywhere else, but it has enriched my Byzantine heritage. This information is no longer taught in our churches; and the vast knowledge of our ancestors is passing on year-by-year.

The Liturgical Commission (also brought together by our beloved Archbishop) is not making up new music. If one would compare the proposed liturgies next to Bokshai�s Prostopinije and a copy of the Irmologion, they would notice it is �Identical�. Sure the words take some getting used to, but so did English version introduced to our relatives 30 years ago. It is time to praise the dedication of those individuals working to preserve our traditions. And we should look forward to being able to enter our churches anywhere in the country and sing out the divine liturgy because we have the same music to follow.

Zeeker,

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Joe

I think Zeeker's points are well made. And, at the same time, I think a caution is in order.

The idea of our "ancient prostoupenia" I believe is intended to show due respect to the wedding of text and music that was accomplished by the forebears. When things go from one language to another, however, the musical vehicle (for want of a better word) will suffer if there is no correlation between accent points in the language and downbeat points in the music. In addition, styles of older music have an appeal for their own generational audience. But this appeal may not carry over to later generations. This can further complicate the matter.

Further, "Mass" music (or liturgical music in general) has been the province of "trained" musicians and of the more 'formal' variety. (I.e., Pearl Jam has yet to compose a Vespers.)

The solution appears to be not to 'canonize' the music from the traditional prostoupenia, but rather to use it as a template for the English renderings. With the qualification that one must choose which particular style from the historical treasury makes the most sense for current worshippers. For example, there are plagal chants in the Greek Church that have many, many notes on one vowel of a syllable. But contemporary American music doesn't make use of this musical technique; it sounds silly to our ears. So, let's use some other paradigm to set the English.

Those folks who belong to the "Not ONE Note Lost!!" Society, should try their hand at setting English words to their music. [Note to readers: Buy stock in Valium company!]. When their efforts fall short of the mark, they'll usually backtrack and suggest that we should be singing in the 'ancestral language' anyway.

If the music and texts are good and singable, they'll survive; if they are not good and not singable, they'll not be used.

In the 1930s, to preserve the German language from 'corruption' from non-Aryan sources, Hitler ordered the replacement of non-German terms with German ones. Telephon became Fernsprecher. Das Auto became Der Kraftwagen. Etc. Misuse was punishable by fines, and imprisonment if you were a publisher. Within several months of Der Fuehrer's demise, the old terms came back into general use. The Point: You CAN'T mandate popularity. You can enforce conformity; but when you're dead, so are your regulations.

Blessings!

PS: You can sing Bohoroditse Divo to the first 8 measures of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". It sounds great. Also: "Izhe cheru - cheruvimi" fits the theme from the Brady Bunch quite nicely. So, perhaps we CAN find other musical settings!

Wow i realky like somewhere over the rainbow and the brady bunch. That would be soooooo much fun. Seriously it would be. One night we could be playing name that tune and mistake a popular song for a church song.

-Katie g

Oy!!!!!! :rolleyes: The Byzantine version of the "musical" liturgy.

So far I have seen well over thirty maybe forty different melodies used for Ize Cheruvimy, many from folk songs. This number does NOT include the many well known choral arrangements.
It seems to me that if the people knew the folk song, they could easily sing the liturgical version in church complete with harmony. I would guess that at the height of prostopinije most of the people attending Liturgy already knew quite a few different melodies.

We as a country have already LOST so much of a common musical heritage to the electronic media age. How many times have we heard the dissonant mumblings of 'happy birthday' at a party? Wouldn't you rather hear it harmonized? Everybody knows the melody, but feels embarrased to sing it. Society today does not encourage public singing, that is to be left to 'professionals'. Before the flood of inexpensive electronic mass media, singing was a popular, common occurence.

In our churches, we are going against the grain by continueing to sing the liturgy. Think about it, the RC church used to chant the Mass, now they don't and it seems more and more people are wishing for a return to the old days. The eastern churches have a long continuous history of chanting the Liturgy, let us not lose that.

Just another rant.....

STeve

Sing with joy and rejoice.....

Does anyone have any bits of the "new music" that can be downloaded? If so, I would like someone to do that, then I can compare it with my Bokshai
music. Then maybe we all can see how it compares to the original Prostopinije.

Ung-Certez (a real Doubting Thomas)

Steve, your perspectives match my own. Current day Americans would rather have dental surgery without anesthesia than sing anything at any time or in any place. Happy Birthday is a prime example.

As for the "folk song" melodies that were kidnapped into liturgical use, there is more than ample precedent for that in the Greater Slavonia. Certain folk song melodies were used to sing parts of the liturgy; and, if I'm not mistaken, there are even examples in printed format of such occurences here in the US. Things like the "Izhe" sung to a variant of Silent Night (for Christmas usage, obviously!!). Our more recent forebears didn't seem to have the ancestor-olatry that we would imagine! They did what made them happy - and what would let people participate in the liturgy. (There is a similar history in the German speaking Church, where the RC Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei were rendered IN GERMAN (NOT Latin!!) and in the form of popular hymnology, not Gregorian Chant.)

So, despite the sometimes overwhelming popular perspective that we should do stuff exactly the way our great-grandparents would because it is more Orthodox and orthodox, my surmise is that your greatgrandmother would smack you upside the head with a frying pan and ask if you were crazy.

Let's not ever forget that these were the people who got fed up with the situation in the old country and oftentimes at risk to life and limb got the heck out. They weren't "conservatives" at all. They were the risk takers and the mold breakers who wanted to make a better life for themselves, but especially for their children and grandchildren. And, regardless of what language line in the bank your folks got into, my hat is off to ALL of them; they had guts.

And liturgically - they installed the electric lights. And bought the electronic organs in Greek parishes. And installed those (god-awful) electronic 'bells' when the bronze Big-Berthas were too expensive. They chose what was the BEST for THEM in their current circumstances. And we should do the same.

We should not feel beholden (archaic enough?) to the traditions at the expense of what is meaningful and do-able for our own contemporary communities. Let's try something new. And hey, if it sounds like Evanesence, or System of a Down, or Kylie Minogue, or Jimmy Eat World or (bow down!!) Aretha Franklin, then why not?

There is no reason whatsoever to feel bound to Samohlasen Tone 358.6, Plagal, as sung by former French Hugenots who converted to Catholic Orthodoxy in the Transylvanian Province of Hungary in the early 17th Century. Who cares.

If the music sounds good to the peoples' ears, use it. If it doesn't, then catalogue it and put it in the archives.

Blessings! (in the 3rd tone!)

Oh, the day that System of a Down and Kylie Minogue are invoked in a Byzantine Forum thread! And in the same sentence yet! Mark this down for posterity...

Steve Petach wrote:
Did he tell you personally that his work would be the only chant allowable?

J. Michael Thompson speaks openly about the need for the bishops to mandate the use of his work.

Amonasticbeginner wrote:
Frank C said new music on Sept. 1. Is that true???

That is what everyone at the cathedral parish is saying. J. Michael Thompson is quiet on the date but has been telling everyone for almost 2 years that his music will be made mandatory throughout the country. Last week at Kennywood several of the priests said that they heard about the September 1 date and thought it might be announced at the upcoming clergy day. Fr. Simeon knows something but won�t confirm the date.

Steve was kind enough to explain these changes to me a couple of weeks ago, and showed me some of the ways in which the Liturgy has changed throughout the years, as he describes above.

Granting my limited experience with the Divine Liturgy, still, the changes do not seem anywhere near as drastic or earth-shattering as some people seem to fear. Yes, there are some new melodies and a couple of words have been translated differently. Some of the silent prayers will now be said aloud (which makes the whole thing clearer, IMHO). That's about it.

It's still 99% better than being forced to listen to Marty Haugen in a R.C. parish, as someone else commented - I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy!

On this date, "Frank C." posted on this forum:

"J. Michael Thompson speaks openly about the need for the bishops to mandate the use of his work."

Mr. Administrator:

This is a LIE, an outright lie. The man who is saying this, whomever he may be in real life, is a liar and a "disturber of Israel." And a coward at that, who hides behind a faceless screen name instead of facing the people he criticizes as he is commanded to do in the Gospel.

Why are you permitting this kind of scurrillous material to be posted with regularity?

This man fabricates remarks and attributes them to me; he alleges that the rector of the Catheral is in on "something;" "some priests..." said this and that. WHAT KIND OF CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR IS THIS AND WHY IS SOMETHING THAT USES THE NAME OF OUR BYZANTINE CATHOLIC CHURCH (HOWEVER UNOFFICIALLY) PERMITTING IT TO HAPPEN???????

To the best of my knowledge, there is no such date or intention to promulgate ANYTHING at the Uniontown Pilgrimage. This is a classic example of propaganda: repeat a lie, repeat it enough times, and you can start a panic.

This behavior is the scandal.

(Prof.) J. Michael Thompson

Admin,

I have to agree with Professor Thompson on this.

I seem to remember a certain person, I believe he called himself Serge, who made certian comments that he was moderated on.

He was told to provide proof and to offer suggestions to fix what he saw as error rather than just complain about the error.

It seems to me that Frank C has a free reign to complain and slander some people with out having to provide any proof or to offer any constructive criticism.

Now I may be going out on a limb here, and will take the rebuke if I must, but I feel I must say this.

Is the reason for this differing treatment because you agree with what one is saying and do not agree with the other?


David