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Dear Alex, Father Deacon Lance, and others,

Greetings to each of you. I do have a "stupid" question. In trying to understand this issue, I am lacking on a bit of information.

Quoted by Father Deacon Lance:
"And this is the main objection to the Gregorian Paschalion by the Orthodox. The criteria sanctioned by Nicea was that Pashca be celebrated on 1) the first Sunday 2) after the first full moon 3)after the vernal equinox and 4) also after the end of the Jewish Passover. "

Perfect, I understand the above (with possible exception to #4 although I have seen this in some readings). My question arises with regards to the "original" Julian calendar. When is the vernal equinox this year, of 2005? In the Gregorian/"reformed" Julian calender, the Vernal Exquinox is on March 20th, 2005. If the original Julian calendar is 13 days off, then is the vernal equinox on March 7th, 2005 Original-Julian?

Thank you for helping me understand. I am really trying to get it!

Michael

Dear-in-Christ Michael,

This is precisely the issue. The Gregorian calendar allows for the equinox to be calculated based on the observable movments of the heavens, ones which we can observe today. So the equinox can actually move by one day in either direction I believe, but March 21st is basically it. However the Julian date of the equinox is still March 21...on the Julian calendar, hence currently 13 days later. This is fixed based on some ancient astronomical charts called, I think, Alexandrian tables. In any event, since the equinox is different by 13 days, more often than not the date of Pascha is different based on those two calculations. Even when Pascha seems to coincide on the civil calendar it does not on the Julian hence the menaion commemorations are different as well. I don't think it is possible for the civil and Julian dates to be the same when Pascha coincides but I have not tried to figure that out, intuition says no.

T

Tony,
Let's be clear. No equinox occurs on Mar 21 Julian. Lincoln once asked: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?". He answered his question: "Four. Calling a tail a leg does not make a tail a leg." The historical record dating back to Nicea is very clear. Vernal equinox, meant, amazingly enough, the vernal equinox.

Dear djs,

I am lost on this. What are you saying?

T

djs,

Perhaps you are trying to say that the Julian calendar is inaccurate? OF COURSE IT IS!

The astronomical data no longer coincide with the Julian dating of the equinox. This is why the Gregorian calendar reform took place in the first place. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying something else?

t

Tony,

I believe DJS is refering to the fact that the actual vernal equinox is the day when:

"throughout the world (in both hemispheres) the length of the day and the night is equal and the Polar nights end. The significance of this phenomenon is that at this time of the year there is no place on Earth that is not touched by the light of the sun during the day. With the coming of the full moon during this time, the moon, being in the dark half of the Earth�s sphere, reflects the sun�s light, and thus the whole world is surrounded at that moment by the light of the sun."

http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/ossorguine-pascha.html
Porabaly the best article I have read on the subject.

The Julian date is astronomically incorrect and not the time of the actual vernal equinox. Calling Julian March 21 the vernal equinox does not make it so. I had never thought about it but the Julian Paschalion violates the Nicean Canons too because it ignores the actual vernal equinox, which is what the Fathers used to determine Pascha.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,

I am not sure how to take the above. Are you, or djs, implying that I suggested that the Julian dating for the equinox was astronomically accurate?

If you are suggesting that you are wrong. Re-read my response, I clearly state "[t]he Gregorian calendar allows for the equinox to be calculated based on the observable movments of the heavens, ones which we can observe today." In the response previous to yours I write "[p]erhaps you are trying to say that the Julian calendar is inaccurate? OF COURSE IT IS!

The astronomical data no longer coincide with the Julian dating of the equinox. This is why the Gregorian calendar reform took place in the first place."

Yet in spite of that you seem to be trying to say to me that the Julian dating of the equinox is astronomically incorrect.

While I am sure you can find one I don't know any Orthodox who would say that the Julian dating of the equinox is astronomically accurate.

However, the fact remains that this is the initial sticking point for the calculation of the date of Pascha. Or do you dispute that?

Please note carefully: I have not said that the Julian dating of the equinox is astronomically accurate. I have said that it is that dating that is used in the Orthodox churches which use the Julian paschalion to calculate the date of Pascha.

T

Deacon Lance,

From the above article:

Tell me which part of I misrepresented or which part of the above you disagree with.

T

This may be the first steps to arriving at one date for Pascha/Easter.
Just curious to know how this dialogue among Greek Orthodox Bishops (I presume) would be handled if it were brought to the attention of His All Holiness and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew ?

If the Orthodox Bishops felt that it was worth mentioning, obviously it should be explored further.

And here I thought all along that it was the Western formulae for Easter that was incorrect.

Brad - Who is saddened this year about the significant gap in dates.

Dear Tony,
I suppose that Fr. Deacon Lance has clarified the point, already.

I would differentiate between the calendar itself and the placing of certain events on it. For example, our decision about when to celebrate "the fourth of July" is not properly considered inherent to the Gregorian calendar; neither is the decision by Chinese Americans of when to celebrate "august 15th. The inherent inaccuracy of the Julian calendar is the mis-match between the duration of the calendar year and the solar cycle.
The idea of calling Mar 21 Julian the "vernal equinox" is a separate issue; it is not a calendar inaccuracy, it is an oddity. This is what I thought may have, in the broader context of endless calendar discussion, been unclear in your post. The vernal equinox has an meaning, existence, and ocurrence that is entirely indepedent of any calendar system; it does not occur on the date Mar 21 Julian.

At Nicea, it was not an arbitrary date, but the astronomically determined vernal equinox was used to determine the vernal equinox for the calculation of the date of Pascha. These observations and this mode of dating continued in immediate aftermath of Nicea. Sometimes Roman and Alexandiran astronomers disagreed and Pascha was celebrated on different dates. But the history is clear that about the use of astronomical reckoning.

Is this point significant? IMO, only to the extent that Old Calendarists make the claim that there is some canonical violation in the Western date of Pascha. The reality is that the Old Calendarist date typically is in violation of the agreement that emerged at Nicea. Their actual claim of a Canon that mandates celebration of Pascha after the conlcuion of Passover is very shaky; their violation of the agreement on the vernal equinox, by contrast, is far better substantiated. It is the irony of the claims that I find remarkable.

The SCOBA link that I posted above concurs that the Western Pascha, in the main, iconsistent with the agreement of Nicea, and thus that the Old Calendar reckoning typically inconsistent with it.

Tony, DJS, Brad, and Father Deacon Lance,

Thank you for the clarification. I do wish Alex and Gaudier were here to help explain this. I am now even more perplexed.

If the vernal equinox is always celebrated on March 21st (forgive me all for this coming statement, and I will take the lashes as they are given) with the original Julian calendar,

and the vernal equinox is a natural event created by our Almighty Father, but is actually happens on March 7th according the the Julian calendar,

but the Julian calendar, (created by man, who was created in His Holy Image), states that the Vernal Equinox occurs on the 21st of March, which is actually the 3rd of April, then seems to me to superceed the will of God.

I realize that this could not happen since it is just completely illogical. As I stated previously, I apologize if it appears that I am hard to learn, but I truly am trying. I need this explained to me, please!

I am not trying to anger anyone, (truly) but I am confused.

Thank you.

In Christ,

Michael

djs,

I honestly have no clue as to what your point is. Mine is the following, the same one I have stated over and over, for the reckoning on the old calendar the date that is used for the equinox is March 21 which on the civil calendar is April 8th IIRC.

If you continue to disagree with that you need to explain more clearly why.

T

Deacon Lance and djs,

Perhaps arguments are being attributed to me that I am not making. If you wish you continue the calendar debate please do so, without me. However, the fact remains that the Julian March 21 is what the Orthodox churches which use that paschalion (the overwhelming majority) use. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.

As to when the equinox actually occurs by astronomical observations that is another issue altogether. I responded merely to why there is a difference, it is becuase of the date the equinox is attributed to, right or wrong that is when it is attributed.

T

What's to understand? The broader context of arguments over this issue makes it important to be clear, even if you don't have a dog in the hunt.

Consder the four, related statements.

1. Some Christians use Mar 21 of the Julian Calendar as the vernal equinox in calculating the the date of Pascha.

Ambiguous. "as" has to do too much work.

2. Some Christians use Mar 21 of the Julian Calendar instead of the vernal equinox in calculating the the date of Pascha.

True and clearer. Allows "vernal equinox" to have its actual meaning.

3. At odds with the common agreement of Nicea, some Christians use Mar 21 of the Julian Calendar instead of the vernal equinox in calculating the the date of Pascha.

True, clear, but argumentative. Although, in light of the common charge that the Western calculation violated the Canons of Nicea, not unreasonable so.

4. The vernal equinox occurs on Mar 21 of the Julian calendar, and is used by some Christians in calculating the date of Pascha.

False. The vernal equinox does not occur on Mar 21 of the Julian calendar.

Bingo! So who is disputing this?