www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall John Kerry & Latin Legalism

No matter who staffs the chapel, the local Ordinary still regulates the celebration of the Eucharist and other liturgical services (cf. CIC can. 838).

Alex -

Truly, is outrage! The American bishops aren't exactly the most stellar bunch, certainly - Thomas "Need a new windshield" O'Brien; the two successive bishops in Florida removed for sexual abuse; Weakland; etc. But the American laity, strangely enough, were never taught in CCD about how to go head-to-head with one's bishop. Protesting abortion is one thing - protesting the bishops is quite another. Where does one even begin? Outrage is well and good, and trust me, there is plenty - but what do we do with that outrage?

One thing to do, anyway, is to start praying to St. John Chrysostom.

(BTW, wasn't the Russian Orthodox Church largely an organ of the government for a long time?)

Just when everybody here is "pontificating" on this issue with gusto, the USCCB spoils the fun! :p

Although it is a Curial "legislation," I thought all along that the "enforcement" of "Redemptionis Sacramentum" is a pastoral concern and lies within the capabilities of the world's national episcopal conferences, like the USCCB, as rightly put by Cardinal Arinze.

Laity, especially non-Latins, preempting Cardinal Arinze and, in our case, the USCCB, "is outrage!"

Let's see if the Bishops' "Task Force" has a "backbone" like the "more Catholic" posters on this thread:

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=52634

Amado

P.S. Comparison between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church(es) is not valid because, according to Cardinal Kasper, there is no such single and institutionalized Orthodox Church.

Even if there is one here in the U.S., comparably it is so miniscule and disjointed that it has no measurable effect on the probable outcome of the coming Presidential elections.

Let the Orthodox row their own boat!

Alex: I am too upset for words. I use strong language all the time to express my "outrage" with the so-called shepherds of the Lord's flock in America, who have done their damndest to scatter it.

David in VA: Kerry may have "served in active combat", but he also testified before Congress and on "Meet the Press" in 1971 that both he and his fellow American sailors and soldiers had committed "atrocities" in Vietnam. Either he was lying then, in which case he has no right to run on his military record (having besmirched his comrades and the military) or he was not. If he was not lying then, he still has no right to run on his military record, but should stand trial at his beloved Hague for international war crimes.

In Christ,

LatinTrad

Axel, get off your high horse; the Orthodox would not necessarily say "Is Outrage!" Don't you remember pro-abortion Michael Dukakis? I recall the Greek Orthodox Archbishop appearing with him and to all appearances endorsing him. The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on hypocrisy nor on weak bishops, and I seriously doubt any Catholic bishop will appear with Kerry.
Another tale: in the early 1980s I was living near DC and was active in the prolife direct action movement. We used to engage in sidewalk counseling at a clinic in Falls Church VA where the abortionist was a Greek, Dr Chris Simopolous. "Well," I thought, "if he's Greek, he's probably Orthodox" and I looked up his pastor. It turns out that his pastor considered the Doctor a member in good standing and had even attended his trial when he was arrested for a botched abortion as an observer. Simopolous eventually fled the country when he was wanted for another botched abortion... Now THAT is outrage!

Dear Daniel,

First of all, my name is "Alex" or "Dr Roman" not "Axel."

That kind of talk is unbecoming someone with a budding reputation as an iconographer. Perhaps it was just a spelling mistake - most artists that I know can't spell.

There is no high horse here to be on. The RC Church has made public statements about politicians who support abortion and then, when people ask about Kerry, the bishops, beginning in Rome, start to pass the buck.

So where, in your view, does the buck stop in the RCC?

Perhaps the Orthodox in America aren't much better than the RC's, as you say.

But then again, the Orthodox leadership doesn't get on its own high horse to pronounce against political abortion-promoters who dare approach Holy Communion with impunity, it would seem.

O.K., Dalien?

(And didn't you recommend that we not speak to each other, period? So why don't you take your own advice?)

Alex

Dear Non_Nomen,

You make a truly important point - the idea of "loyal lay opposition" to bishops etc.

In fact, the laity of the UGCC have had lots of experience doing that via their movement for a patriarchate.

We engaged in demonstrations, protests, petition-signing and sometimes things went really down from there . . .

In this case, I think that the bishops need an extra nudge from the laity to get them to take a stand on Kerry and his ilk, as was said.

Perhaps it is that the bishops feel their laity won't support them in such a public action (?).

Or that the whole issue is too politically hot to handle, both now and in the future?

Perhaps posters here could give some examples of a letter/petition to the bishops in this respect?

(And don't use terms like "smug" or "tacit approval of sin." The Administrator here gets offended at those terms, let alone someone really highly placed like the bishops).

And if anyone can figure out Amado's position in all this, please let me know!!

Alex

In this case, maybe the Archbishop wants to avoid a conflict, as the others are using this for politics. Many of these guys in the TV are neither Catholic or Orthodox but they're very worried about him receiving or not receiving communion, when Kerry has supported pro-abortion ideas.

There are dozens of liberals, politicians and non-politicians both Catholic and Orthodox. The divorced and the re-married are mostly given communion as full members of the Christian community in both Churches. It is a known fact that many of us have sometimes, knowing or not knowing, colaborated with unjust causes.

The thing here is that the medias have used all this or political puirposes. We have no business in their lives unless they live in public scandal.

By the way, people seem scandalized when Kerry was given Communion by a Catholic priest in spite of his liberal ideas. But why were they so quiet when Kerry received the "biscuit" at a Protestant sectarian temple, in a service led by a "woman ministress". Isn't that a public manifestation of heresy, a public act of scandal that deserves excommunication?

Alex:

My "position" is not that hard to figure out.

It's the Vatican's, courtesy of Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments.

Or, some people are just eliding the "meatier" contents of the "Instruction?"

AmdG

P.S. It could have been a Freudian slip on the part of Daniel, the Iconophile, but it seems to me an appropriately made observation given your penchant for doing double and, sometimes, triple "axels!"

So is which is worse: to not speak out against pro-aborts or to speak out but not enforce it? Of course we may judge it best to do both, but I also think we ought to acknowledge that reasonable men might disagree on questions of prudence; incognitus [truly a reasonable man] is of the opinion that ecclesiastical sanctions might result in more votes for Mr Kerry. Personally, radical that I am, I think the Church should enforce her disciplines regardless. I really don't disagree with you Alex, and was merely making the point that the Orthodox are no more likely to display courage than Catholics.
Very perceptive, Amadeus, except it was also a play on the Bad Name that Alex called the Administrator...
You know Alex, if I took my own advice half the time I'd be really holy.

Before tensions escalate any higher, I'm going to ask posters to please reread your posts before hitting Add Reply.

The questions posted by Alex are certainly good questions, but they can only be answered by the bishop(s) as noted by Cardinal Arinze.

Perhaps our poster from the Great White North can pose the question to the USCCB.

Dear Daniel,

Well, if you want the Church to enforce her own sanctions against Kerry, the same sanctions she would enforce against any other of her members, then we really are in agreement.

The RCC in the US has shown very bad judgement in the past and poor leadership on a number of issues, and this is just one in a series.

If Kerry isn't sanctioned in some way and continues to receive Communion although he promotes an abortion agenda, then this simply leaves the RCC in a very bad situation.

There cannot be one rule for some Catholics and another for others.

When I worked for our Catholic school system, I came across administrators there who were Masons.

And their bishop knew they were Masons and, according to the chaplain, they had the bishop's blessing to belong to them.

Other Catholics, including teachers, said that, "If the bishop gave his blessing, then Freemasonry can't be bad - other Catholics can join them, what's the big deal?"

If I were an American and belonged to the Democratic party and supported Kerry, including his abortion agenda, well, why shouldn't I?

And, in so doing, why couldn't I go to Communion?

Who would stop me - or my man for president, John Kerry?

But your bishops appear to have established a group to discuss this issue and hopefully it will be resolved sometime soon in the future.

And, yes, I did report your contempt of my name to the Administrator.

I also reported a post of my own to the Administrator and asked him to come down hard on that obnoxious fellow that you know as "Axel."

Alex

Father Deacon John,

Normally, I don't say anything about the US bishops as their actions leave me speechless . . .

But I have sent an email from the forum to the US bishops' conference and I see on EWTN that they are now going to establish a discussion group to deal with the matter forthwith.

It just goes to show you what great influence the Byzantine Forum has even with Latin bishops!

Sixty-five minutes later . . .

The Latin Bishops know that you don't fool around with the Byzantine Forum!!

Or with Fr. Deacon John Montalvo for that matter . . .

Alex

Yes, we are in agreement; I only was pointing out that things are not always so rosy among the Orthodox, as well as the fact that reasonable men might disagree about prudential matters. I consider you a reasonable man, at least on a good day.
I am glad you are tattling on yourself, too...

Dear Daniel,

Well, so far the US bishops aren't going to move to do anything about Kerry - except ask Catholic universities to avoid inviting to speak et al.

I'm confused by their attitude in such a clear-cut case of "Rome says you should do this - then you do it."

I'm sorry to let my confusion over this spill out as any sign of disrespect toward the bishops in what must be a very, very difficult situation.

Alex