www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall John Kerry & Latin Legalism

Come on! What kind of argument is this??! John Kerry wasn't injured "enough" in Vietnam??!

Firstly, if you Americans really believe your in a state of war, don't you ALL need to stand together for your country, Atheists as well as Believers? Will the plegde of allegance be less patriotic if Atheists can say it as well?? Aren't Atheists citizens with equal rights too?

(Remember it's a pledge of allegance to your earthly, temporal country, not a prayer to God!)

Secondly, "he should be thrown out of congress"??! No matter if he was duly elected by the people of his district, if he doesn't share your religious-political views he should be thrown out!

This sound more like the Theocratical system of Iran than the Constitutional system of the United States!

In Iran the religious scholars of the "Council of Guardians" deny someone the right to run for parlament if he or she is in the councils opinion "un-Islamic", is it a similar system you want in the US of A??

For shame, matushka!!!

Christian

Christian - I realize that it is still very cold up in Sweden. But please, please, stop flaming. Pani Rose in no way deserved you "shouting" at her and caricaturing her position. If you cannot speak charitably - which this and other posts of yours would indicate is the case - then please don't speak...

Non_nomen, he's right though in every point he makes. Americanism isn't a religion that we much subscribe to in order to be saved. In fact, I get very nervous when I see politics and religion get too entwined. They should be kept strictly seperate. Remember, America is a secular nation and not a Christian one. Never was and, please God, never will be. It is supposed to be a nation where everyone is welcome and equal, no matter how religious or irreligious they may be. I hope it stays that way. I don't want an political inquisition telling me what I have to do or not do. Moe

Dear Moe,

Though we are not a 'Christian' nation, per se, was this nation not founded, grounded, and guided by Christian principles since its inception?

Maybe that is why so many consider us a 'Christian' nation...kind of like Orthodox Christianity being considered to be 'Hellenistic' by some...because of the thought behind it, not the actual adherence.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Christian:

Pani Rose is entitled to her opinions as an American taking part in the democratic system of our country. You seem very liberal from many of your posts, and that is your opinion and perogative.

However, there are others here who are Americans living in the U.S. who follow a very Conservative political mindset. We vote, we live here, we experience our own problems and culture,and therefore it is our (aka: Panni Rose's) perogative to express our frustrations with our political system and the values they endorse, one way or the other..wouldn't you agree?

Alice

Moe - I was not reacting to Christian's points, and I won't do so now (it's not worth the argument). I was taking issue purely with his tone and his treatment of Pani.

I relaize it is very hard for someone that is not from the United States to understand how serious the great majority of Ameriacans are about the Pledge of Allegance. The Justice Dept. argues �The reference to a �nation under God� in the Pledge of Allegiance is an official patriotic acknowledgment of what all students � Jewish, Christian, Muslim or atheist � may properly be taught in the public schools.� Maybe this will help....

OrthodoxScandinavian wrote:
(Remember it's a pledge of allegance to your earthly, temporal country, not a prayer to God!)

Christian: These are from Red Skeleton, these words were spoken many years before the situation of today ever existed...in many ways they are rather prophetic...

The following words were spoken by the late Red Skelton on his television program as he related the story of his teacher, Mr. Laswell, who felt his students had come to think of the Pledge of Allegiance as merely something to recite in class each day.

Now, more than ever, listen to the meaning of these words.

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you.

If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"

I me, an individual, a committee of one.

Pledge...

dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

Allegiance...

my love and my devotion.

To the flag...

our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

United...

that means that we have all come together.

States...

individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

And to the republic...

a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For which it stands, one nation...

one nation, meaning "so blessed by God"

Indivisible...

incapable of being divided.

With liberty...

which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice...

the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

For all...

which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

***~~**~~***

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?

God Bless America!
http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html

When Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Washington decided not to add 'Under God' when he led the House in the Pledge of Allegance, he went against what was established by the Congress that he serves in. He went against an established law. How sad our times are when we feel God is so unimportant to laws developed by man.

There is a story the Jews tell:
When God led the Israellites out of Egypt, and the Egyptians drowned the people danced and rejoiced. The angels danced and rejoiced with them. God spoke to the angels and told them, that he understood the rejoicing of the people because they didn't understand the difference. But that His angels knew the difference. They understood how sad He was at the loss of the souls of the Egptians, that He could not save them.

That in a way is our situation here. God has done so many things to try to save us as a nation...he even added 'under God' to our pledge to remind everyone, but as a nation we are choosing to ignore Him. How sad it is for us that we, as a nation, are not allowing Him to save us as a nation. If we continue to push Him out of our government He will turn His head from us. Yet like Lot, because there were a few faithful, He saved them. God have mercy on our souls!

Pani Rose

The Story of the Pledge of Allegiance

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States, according to James A. Moss, an authority on the flag and its history, was first given national publicity through the official program of the National Public School Celebration of Columbus Day in October 1892. The Pledge had been published in theYouth's Companion for September 8,1892, and at the same time sent out in leaflet form throughout the country.During the Celebration it was repeated by more than 12,000,000 public school pupils in every state in the Union.

Mr. Francis Bellamy of Rome, New York, and Mr. James Upham of Malden, Massachusetts were both members of the staff of the Youth's Companion when the Pledge was published. The family of each man has contended that his was the authorship and both hold evidence to substantiate their claims.

To determine, in the interest of historical accuracy, the actual authorship, the United States Flag Association (formerly in Washington, D.C., but now disbanded), in 1939, appointed a committee consisting of Charles C. Tansill,Professor of American History; W. Reed West, Professor of Political Science; and Bernard Mayo, Professor of American History, to carefully weigh the evidence of the two contending families. Unanimously, the committee decided in favor of Francis Bellamy, and on May 18, 1939, the decision was accepted by the American Flag Committee. Mr. Bellamy had been chairman of the executive committee which formulated the program for the National Public School Celebration and furnished the publicity when he was on the staff of the Youth's Companion.

In the material which he nationally circulated, he wrote, �Let the flag float over every school-house in the land and the exercise be such as shall impress upon our youth the patriotic duty of citizenship.� He also included the original 23 words of the Pledge which he had developed. * 'to' added in October, 1892.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and (to*) the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

Thus it was that on Columbus Day in October 1892, the Pledge of Allegiance was repeated by more than 12 million public school children in every state in the union.

The wording of the Pledge has been modified three times.

On June 14, 1923, at the First National Flag Conference held in Washington, D.C., under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words. The latter words were added on the ground that some foreign-born children and adults when giving the Pledge might have in mind the flag of their native land.In 1923, the words �the flag of the United States� were substituted for �my flag.�

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

In 1924, �of America� was added.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


On Flag Day June 14, 1954, the words �under God� were added

The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God". As he authorized this change he said: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
This was the last change made to the Pledge of Allegiance. The 23 words what had been initially penned for a Columbus Day celebration now comprised a Thirty-one profession of loyalty and devotion to not only a flag, but to a way of life....the American ideal. Those words now read:

�I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.�

The Pledge of Allegiance continued to be recited daily by children in schools across America, and gained heightened popularity among adults during the patriotic fervor created by World War II. It still was an "unofficial" pledge until June 22, 1942 when the United States Congress included the Pledge to the Flag in the United States Flag Code (Title 36). In 1945 the Pledge to the Flag received its official title as: The Pledge of Allegiance.

http://www.flagday.org/Pages/StoryofPledge.html

Rose, I predict in time those words will be deleted from the Pledge and probably should be. As you so interestingly pointed out in the history of the Pledge, it hasn't been in there orignally so what's wrong with omitting it. Kinda like the filioque. If I remember correctly, the guy you are so upset with for omitting it stated that he was just reciting the one he had learned as a child BEFORE IT WAS AMENDED! Moe

Moe - First, why are you shouting at Pani Rose? Where is the sensitivity you were talking about over on the post about the statue? Second, what precisely do you mean by saying that America is not under God? Do you mean that God didn't create the land or its people? Or that politics are somehow created of their own accord, and our politicians have no need to answer to their Creator? Or that we shouldn't acknowledge the reality of God as our ultimate Ruler because atheists don't? What do you mean by it?

Since we are all Byzantines or Byzantinophiles on this forum, I thought that perhaps the argument of omitting the words of 'one nation under God' might have an analogy in the history of Constantinople...

We devout Christians of the U.S. believe that we have been protected from the great many horrors and disasters that the rest of the world has, NOT because we are superior than anyone else (FAR from it), nor are we more pious than any other nation, but because we have officially committed and dedicated our nation to His care and His love..for it is in GOD we trust, whether we are Christian or Jew. Many of us believe that our Lord has shielded us with a veil of protection.

Constantinople also had that veil of protection. The people of the city thwarted the attacks of the infidel with the famous Akathist Hymn to our Lady Theotokos...standing all night vigil in Haghia Sophia while singing her praises. However, the people probably started becoming lax in their faith, and there is a story of how a great mist looking just like a veil was seen to be lifting towards the heavens on top of a church in the city (the details elude me now) never to be seen again. (Gaudior might be able to help me out here). This was shortly before Constantinople's fall to the Ottoman Turks, and the demise of her ever being Christian again.

We have removed prayer from schools, we do not allow mention of the Christian religion by students, we have legalized abortion....how much more will it take to have our veil lifted? I would NEVER advocate for taking out the name of God from ANYTHING!

Alice

Christos Anesti!
Alithos Anesti!

Dear Alice,

While I have never heard that story of they lisfting of the Veil, I will be willing to say that the church you referred to may have been Blachernae, where the original Miracle occurred.

I would very much like to read further details about what your have described, please plost them should you find them!

Interestingly, a friend just showed me an icon of the Theotokos stretching out her veil of protection over the city of Washington, DC. A most unusual icon. I will link to it if I can find it again.

Gaudior, apologizing for being unable to help shed more light on a fascinating tale.

But this was exactly why Pani's post made me "flame up" (maybe I reacted strongly, but her words were also very strong!). She didn't seem to let people who does not share her conservative views the right to their opinion.

The Congressman who did not share her views on the separation of church and state (or the lack thereof) should "be kicked out of Congress"!!
This does not sound like respect for other people's views in my opinion.

This is what desturbes me about the political climate in the US at the moment, this fundamentalist type of black or white "if you're not with us, you're against us"-mentality. Eighter you're with God/Bush/America/Israel or you're with the Atheists/terrorists/traitors...

Funny that you see me as VERY Liberal, in Scandinavia I'm considered to be centre/right-wing!

Christian

Pani Rose said that the Congressman who did not recite the Pledge as Congress voted that it should be recited should be kicked out. It had nothing to do with his "personal opinions/views"; it had to do with his public actions.

Please stop reading things that are not there into what others on the boards say, please treat us with respect instead of as stereotypes, and please stop with the knee-jerk reaction of "Intolerance!". (Yes, I am aware that I am not a moderator. I'm just ticked off. )

By the way, it does seem that Kerry "was not injured enough" - to merit a Purple Heart, that is. Read this [nationalreview.com] and this [nationalreview.com]

The reason that we put the words "Under God" in the Pledge, after the words "one nation", was to emphasize the fact that in the U.S. we don't consider the state to be supreme - that we acknowledge there is a higher authority than the government. Is that really so awful?

Dear Alice and Non-nomen thanks for your support. You have been too kind. But your words that you have posted on the subject have been very strong and to the point. That is very interesting and I too remember something about a veil being there.

Dear Christian,

I am sorry my words have offended you so much. It is seldom that something makes mad enough to make an explantion as "should be kicked out". You see this was a country where doors weren't locked, everyone looked out for everyone else, a place that had tremendous pride in who we are as a nation and what we had done for others. Now Mcdermott says he remembers the way he learned it in school, admittingly he was out of high school in the year of 1954. Well consider this, he has been in congress since 1971 except for a stent in the Foreign Service, this is his Military Service: U.S. Navy Medical Corps, Lieutenant Commander, Chief Psychiatrist, Long Beach Naval Station, California, 1968-70. You know what, from at least 1968 to the present, I promise you he said the Pledge of Allegance with "Under God" in it. The military would have nothing else be said. And Congress has said it that way since 1954, so those years are far greater than elementry school. So, no I don't buy his statment!

I listened to the Swift Boat Veterans for Turth last night on C-Span2. They are really good and to the point, and very angry feeling the Kerry is lying, and what he has said has demeaned their service. His admiral was one of the men speaking. I am glad that Non-Nomen gave that address, I was going too.

I also remembered why Kerry's being their only 4 moths makes me so mad. After listening to those vets, I rememer sitting in the NCO Club, and other places, talking to Navy Seals, some were good friends. It was not a pretty picture at all. Their state of mind was basically that we won't come back home, or it is nothing but a miracle that I made it back from Nam. Their lives were very hard and the majority of the time for a lot of them was litteraly spent in the water...They were hurting. I was stationed at Bolling Field in Washington DC at the time, and it was not a loveley site to see the pain these guys were suffering. Then someone like Kerry has the nerve to say that about them. It was a lie! God have mercy on these men and Kerry.

And I was vindicated for my statement of Kerry went in there just to run for office(or something like that) which I wrote several days ago, by one of the articles address that Non-Nomen posted..."Kerry was treated for the wound at a medical facility in Cam Ranh Bay. The doctor who treated Kerry, Louis Letson, is today a retired general practitioner in Alabama. Letson says he remembers his brief encounter with Kerry 35 years ago because "some of his crewmen related that Lt. Kerry had told them that he would be the next JFK from Massachusetts."

Pani Rose