www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Homosexualists and Pedophilia

The contemporary Catholic Church is NOT the church my brother and I remember from parochial school circa the '60's.

"How far you have fallen, from grace and the beauty of holiness, once Lovely Lady."

Sincerely, I feel sorrow for those Catholics burdened with sorrow.

I am grateful to God that I am a Sufi Muslim--it could have been otherwise-- and live within a small community immune from these tribulations of the collective soul.

Salaam....I hope.

Abdur,

Please do not overstate your case. Just ask one of those Pilipino or Ethiopian female maids who go do domestic work in Saudi Arabia in a Muslim household what happens when the husband sexually ignores one of his many wives. In many cases the maid is forced into lesbian relationships with the sexually frustrated wife. There are many cases of these maids being killed by the same wife when the maid started complaining. I am sorry to inform you that Sunni Muslims are not “immune from these tribulations of the collective soul.” You guys have problems just like the rest of us.

God Bless You

Aklie Semaet

You need to re-read what I actually wrote.

For example, the clue to understanding my statement rests on two very important points :

I am a SUFI---not Sunni--Muslim and I live in--a what?--small community--as in local--that is--what?--immune from these moral aberrations.

I didn't want to involve myself in this issue, but speaking as a 50'sh 'old geezer--not to be confused with 'Old Geez -- product of the Catholic parochial education system, I am sickened by the moral chaos that seems to be sabotaging the good work--and good faith--of the laos of the Catholic Church in
America.

That's my 2 dinars.

Salaam..I hope.

Abdur

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

I'm with Brother Aklie on this one.

For those who are not "majority", our Eastern beliefs and understandings represent our undertanding of who we are and what we believe, and we are susceptible to condemnation by the "majority" since we are 'outside' the pale of what is acceptible to the 'majority'.

I am reminded of the old saw: "The United States catches cold and Canada sneezes". The Roman Church experiences a problem and the Byzantines are forced to sneeze, needing to or not. Some Orthodox go nuts and automatically place the Byzantines in the realm of the the Roman Church.

And so, we are told we have to accept the Western theological approach to sin (and, if we don't, we are just benighted and in need of 'education' from the "Catholic" perspective as defined by the non-bishops.) Scary.

My response: Leave us alone. We are a community under our bishops. If we have a problem, then we'll deal with it WITHOUT input from those outside the community. If one is INSIDE the community, then LISTEN to the rest of us and don't try to browbeat us into acquiesing to some particular perspective because it is "biblical" or "canonical" or "Papal". One doesn't win the support of the community by being "Right" or "Justified". We just don't play that way.

Blessings! (And Christos Anesti/Christos Voskrese to our old Calendar brothers and sisters!!)

Let me just say, I have agreement on many issues with Dan. I have long believed that the US Catholic seminaries need to get back to the basics and refocus away from certain ultraliberal theological trends.

However, just as we see that, if anything, the "orthodox" bishops were the most lax towards abusers and the priests who were abusers were/are often externally "orthodox" and favorites of orthodox bishops, I don't think gay priests and the general issue of "orthodoxy" is much connected.

Again, thank you to everyone who has been kind to me, including Dr. John and Alex.

Axios

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

Brother Lauffer posts (to a student): "Aklie,
When you make stupid accusations against me you show how little you know. If you knew what you were talking about and not just "foaming at the mouth" I might take the time to respond seriously to you. But that would surely be a waste of time."

Gee. I've been a teacher (high school and college) for the past thirty-two years. My experience is: NEVER, EVER dismiss an inquiry from a student without responding in a rational way so that the student can learn. Intimating that an inquiry is a "stupid accusation" (as quoted above) or accusing one of being "foaming at the mouth" (as quoted above) strikes me as being the last-gasp response of someone who purports to be a teacher but who has absolutely nothing of relevance to say in response to another's proposition.

Brother Lauffer has proposed an article that purports to show how homosexuals are more significantly paedophilic in orientation AND has challenged Axios to provide alternative academic articles. Brother Axios has presented not just one, but 17 articles (replete with bibliographic citations) to refute the original proposition.

Brother Axios' response has been dismissed by Brother Dan on the grounds of 'semantics', i.e.,
Axios' sources' understanding of homosexuality or whatever do not parallel the understanding of the original article (i.e., "they changed the meaning of the terms") so Brother Dan (and his source) don't have to respond since "we are not talking about the same thing".

The Arabs have a great word: "fakir", which has been rendered in English as "faker". It signifies a person who says one thing, but in reality proposes something else.

Dr. John,

Aklie did not identify himself as a student. Nevertheless, I was simply repeating what he said. Now if I could I'd meet you in the back alley and we could settle this. Be a man, John, and stop trying to intimidate me.

Dan Lauffer

BTW Go blow it out your other end.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

Please refrain from name-calling or calling someone else's opinions stupid.

I am perplexed about this thread. It has already been discussed in other threads and the Church's teaching is clear that all sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful. Does it really matter if there are more homosexual priests who abuse children than there are heterosexual priests who abuse children? Does this make such abuse either more or less sinful? Clearly those priests who engage in homosexual activity are engaging in sinful activity and I suspect it would fair to judge it extra sinful when compared to priests engaging in heterosexual sex with a woman. Still, are not both sinful?

It is my personal opinion that the information Dan has posted is correct. But that doesn't matter. The real question is what should the children to about the problem? I ask Dan to please make clear his reasons for starting this thread.

Dan,

I used the "foaming from the mouth' comment in the context of a joke in regard to the behavior of Pentecostals. I never once claimed you were "foaming from the mouth' I just cautioned you form relaying sources associated with fanatics such as these types of people.

Administrator,

I hope that you do not imply that because you believe “that the information Dan has posted is correct” automatically means that the article has any more scholarly credibility. The article goes against the mainstream position in social science so it needs more serious empirical data than was offered in the article posted.

Bisantino,

I agree with your comments; however this is not the place to discuss them. I hope that you or Axios can post another thread that provides the opportunity.

Abdur,

Mr. "Sufi' I apologize for not reading you last contribution adequately. Still, there is no way that "Sufis' do not have problems also.

God Bless You All.

Administor,

I thank you for restating the Church's stand on this issue. That should long ago have closed the issue but apparently not.

I have given my reasons for posting in another thread. I have also said that I have offered all that I wish to offer.

Dan Lauffer

Aklie,

Thank you for your clarification. Sorry for jumping on you so hard.

Dan Lauffer

Administrator,

As far as I'm concerned you may close this thread though others may still wish to post.

Dan Lauffer

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aklie Semaet:

Abdur,

Mr. "Sufi' I apologize for not reading you last contribution adequately. Still, there is no way that "Sufis' do not have problems also.

You are correct: Sufis have problems like all other mortals. No doubt about that.

But in my congregation, we do not have to live with the moral aberrations that are the topic of this thread.

Al'ham'du'allah.

Thanks be to God!

Salaam,

Abdur

And God bless you!

Interestingly, I spoke yesterday to the psychometrist for a majfor Roman Catholic institution. He (who calls himself a moderate-conservative) admitted, some what remorsefully, that in applying more rigourously the testing they are able to do for priestly candidates to weed out child abusers, those candidates with a gay orientation who have a positive understanding of themselves will pass the test, (as they are the least likely to commit an act of abuse) while those who the tests shows are more likely to be or become abusers then to be the rigid and infelxiable types.

He explained that child abuse, like rape, is abotu power rather than sex. Adults abuse children because they want a sense of power, but also have a low impression of themselves, therefore seek partiuclarly weak and vunerable objects of their power. In turn, they tend to be quite fearful of adult "power" and therefore, highly conforming, conservative and often syncopathic towards authortiy.

He concluded (again, somewhat unhappily) that stricter screening will likely cut out almost exclusively outwardly "orthodox" priests.

Axios

P.S. To Carson,

I apprciate yoru desire to move on from this thread. I reviewed your 50 most recent posts, and I have to say, of the 7 of them which were to topics other than homosexuality, I find myself edcuated, informed and inspired by your contributions.

Axios

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
[QB]Dr. John,

"BTW Go blow it out your other end."

Now there is a Nietzschian or "power of the will," expression if I have ever heard one!

Expressions like that destroy your testimony.

Nevertheless, you are a sincere follower of Christ and your moral compass points to Paradise.

Salaam,

Abdur

Aklie,

It is my considered opinion that the mainstream position in social science is wrong once again. Remember that these are the same social scientists who told the bishops in the 1980's and 1990's that pedophilia could be cured with therapy. Why would anyone put their faith in such people? If you really study their reports you can easily see that their “science” is very sloppy and conducted to provide data for a desired outcome. Simply put, they do not have a record of truthfulness or accuracy.

I always find it interesting that those who are pro-gay generally accuse those who call homosexual sex sinful as hateful people. Even though people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell preach an incomplete version of the Gospel what they do teach is far closer to us than is the work of the social scientists out to abolish the notion of sin.

I will leave this thread open but I really do hope that everyone has already said what they wish to say.

Admin