www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Homosexualists and Pedophilia

First of all, I would like to thank God for all of the kind people who have posted statements both here and to me privately. Each of you are true Christians!

Second, I think the previous post gives evidence to the position I hold. Dan seems to attack me every direction I turn so I will ask him with no preference on my part:

1. Does this now settle this matter?

2. Is the matter now which of these conflciting statements is reputable?

3. Do we have a particular, unresolved issue that you wish to continue a dicussion on?

Lastly, Dan, evenif you were 100% right, your invoking the name of a church you do not belong to is one of the issues that Orhtodox leaders have long not appreciated by some of you Catholics.

Even when you KNOW you are right, leve it to the Orthodox to proclaim our own beliefs.

Axios

"I've read other reports on this but this seems the most recent. All report the same thing: Pedophilia is much more common among those who claim themselves to be homosexual than those who claim to be heterosexual.

....

Dan Lauffer"

Dear Dan,

I'd like to ask a question if I may. It has to do with the weight that you ask us to attribute to the report that you have posted.

Are you presenting what appears to be a newspaper report as scientific evidence that homosexuality is a causitive factor in paedophilia?

Thanks,

Steve

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Kristos Voskrese,

I agree with Axios. I personnaly feel that homosexuality has nothing to do with pedophialia any more tha heterosexuality has due with it or rape ar anything else for that matter. I say lets give it a rest. I am sure there are more Theosis inspiring topics to be addressed.

Dmitri

I guess if people can change definitions of terms as they choose without anyone calling their honesty into question then I suppose the case is closed. On the other hand if a person who has intercourse with a person of the same sex is a homosexualist, and that is all that anyone cares about, then I would say that there is a problem with this researcher's work.

"There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147)."

I thank you for at least posting something that is related to the topic at hand.

Dan Lauffer

Steve,

"Are you presenting what appears to be a newspaper report as scientific evidence that homosexuality is a causitive factor in paedophilia?"

No. I do not believe that "orientation" is relavent. I believe that lust is a causitive factor in all outside of marriage between a man and a woman and is a causitive factor in between some married people.

But it is good that at least someone has posted something relavent to the question I raised.

Axios,

If you don't want opinions from members of this board then don't hang around here. It's is nice to have Orthodox and Catholic persons here but why would you wish to shut down the discussion from the Byzantine Catholics just because you are formally a member of an Orthodox Church? I'm sorry that you don't choose to follow the teachings of your own Church but that is your business. Whether or not you choose to be obedient has no effect on whether or not a Byzantine Catholic posts on the forum designed for Byzantine Catholics.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Friends,

Yep, yep - a contentious issue all around.

The problem with using studies to 'prove' any position is the age-old difficulty introduced by "probabilism" (Did I spell that correctly?).

This affects all social science and behavioural research.

People in the natural sciences have it more easy. They can point to an objective study and say, "There it is, look at it."

But even here companies have used medical and other researchers and studies to prove what they want to have proven.

And what if a flurry of studies comes forward to say that pedophilism is simply an alternative form of healthy sexuality? That anyone can "learn it" and those who want to should - the laws should be changed?

And then afterwards the only way one might separate the men from the boys would be with a crow-bar.

What will happen then and we're not too far off from it now, believe me.

We had lectures by people who could "scientifically" establish that masturbation is not only healthy, but necessary for proper sexual development.

The point is such discussions should refrain from "studies and statistics."

We need to promote a moral renewal and, frankly, right now the Church has lost some credibility on that score.

Alex

"No. I do not believe that "orientation" is relavent. I believe that lust is a causitive factor in all outside of marriage between a man and a woman and is a causitive factor in between some married people."

Dear Dan,

Thank you for your quick response.

As a result of your statement, I have further questions if I may. They have to do with the title of this thread and why you posted only the article that you posted. I am trying to understand.

What was your reasoning for not entitling the thread "Lust and Paedophilia?" Why did you not include reports about pedophilia that is associated with heterosexuals who are also subject to lust as you point out?

Here's the reason for the questions. If I understand your response, you are not suggesting that orientation is the cause of paedophilia or the reason for its occurance among Christain people. The current title and the sole article cited detract from the focus on one issue that some Christians face, paedophilia. It confuses that issue with another issue that some Chrisians deal with.

I agree with you. Lust is certainly a deep motivator for such behavior, as you point out. Can there not be others such as the will to power that you mention on another thread?

Given that, is the question here how can the Church deal with paedophilia, on the larger scale? Is that what this thread is about? Is it about lust and its destructive power or is it about the will to power that is somehow connected with paedophilia especially in the Church?

Thanks again!

Steve

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Inawe ]

Steve,

Thank you for a very reasoned post.

"Given that, how can the Church deal with the issue that you raise, paedophilia, on the larger scale?"

I think the bottom line is to insist upon orthodoxy from our bishops, priests, and people. We've gone through a long period in which our leaders have seemed afraid to ask anything of us. We see in the behavior of some that it may be due to their relunctance to ask much of themselves. Thank God for holy orthodox bishops, priests, and people. It is good to lift up their example and to encourage them frequently. Pray that they will ask as much of us as they ask of themselves. Live such holy lives that the disobedient and dissenters will be too ashamed to mock the holy and the orthodox.

Stop misusing Jesus command not to judge. He never intended us to be lawless but rather forgiving. At the same time the righteous have a vocation of calling forth righteousness from the world as we work with the Holy Spirit.

There is no place for regular acting out of lusts whether they be for sex, domination, power, or money.

Let us respect orthodoxy. Let us encourage others to live by the same standards we live by. God's justice is always loving and His loving is always just. Let us then make sure that both virtues work in tandem in our own lives.

I've rather surprised myself these last few days. These posts were as much of a test for me as anything else. I could have at one time gotten very angry and would have responded with as much vitriol as I received from those who called me all sorts of names. But I did not. In fact God has helped me remain disinterested in those kinds of things. It really doesn't matter what others think of me. In fact I doubt that most of them who attacked me really give me much thought.

Let God arise, His enemies be scattered.

Shine in splendor, O new Jerusalem.

Dan Lauffer

As do I, hence my displeasure with Law and Egan, of whom I think it would be that they resign.

And like Dan, I thank God for holy orthodox bishops, priests, and people who stand up to protect children from abuse. I pray more may have such courage. I pray in thanksgiving for the victims and their families who have had the courage to speak out and hope God gives this gift to more.

I too ask for respect and that we encourage others to live by the same standards we live by. I believe that God's justice is always loving and His loving is always just anmd that we should make sure that both virtues work in tandem in our own lives.

I applaud Dan for holding back on his anger. Anger against gay people has been a great source of sin. While I wish Dan would have restrained himself from the names he called gay people, for the most part he avoided association with the the typical hatred gay people have suffered.

I also want to apologized to Dan in that he feels I suggest he not write. I am happy to either continue or abandon this discussion as he sees fit. I also commend him for using the lower case "o" in his response and apologize if I overreacted to what was simply a loose shift key on his part. I certainly appreciate anyone here speaking their beliefs from their chosen religous communion.

Axios

Dan,

All you have proven is that you have imported your conservative political orientation from your Pentecostal/protestant days into what ever is your newly found faith (Catholic or Orthodox, I am not sure which one).

“Stop misusing Jesus command not to judge. He never intended us to be lawless but rather forgiving. At the same time the righteous have a vocation of calling forth righteousness from the world as we work with the Holy Spirit.”

No Jesus did not tell us to be lawless. However, he did tell us not to hold standards for others that we do not keep for ourselves. Who can say that they have never committed fornication before? I have gay friends and I have friends that are straight but live, unmarried, with their girl friend. Both of those practices are EQUALLY WRONG. How hypocritical would I be if I constantly told my gay friends that they are wrong but then say nothing to the 99.9% of the unmarried adults I know who practice fornication? I have never heard any Orthodox Church condone homosexuality or fornication. What else do you expect them to do? Go on hate campaigns against gay people? Save that for those Pentecostal, foaming from the mouth, Bible thumping, tongues flipping like mermaids tail friends of yours. We don't need it in Orthodoxy.

First of all, the study you cite is not from a credible source at all. It is not produced in a peer reviewed journal where it could be scrutinized by specialists in the field. It was even rejected for publication by Stanford University's Law Review. That in itself should warn you of its dubious value. Baldwin said, "However, it is time to acknowledge that homosexual behavior threatens the foundation of Western civilization --the nuclear family." Such a comment is political and would not be allowed in a scholarly journal. Judith Reisman's book also underwent a similar fate, rejection by University presses just to be published by some crazy paranoid people. I think I found the web site where you found and copied that article from (if I am not mistaken it was a bunch of Scout Masters debating if gays should serve with the Boy Scouts of America). One of them posted the type of books that that are found with Judith Reisman's:


I find it telling that you were exposed to this commentary and still chose to post that article. It proves that you have an overall agenda no matter what the scientific evidence is. Axios posted what is the overall consensus of the scientific community on this subject. You just ignored it all and chose to follow the "work' of charlatans on right-wing political campaigns.


If Adolph Hitler said he had a study that "proved' that Jews control the planet and are the immediate source for all suffering and he had statistics to "prove it' there could be a number of ways to respond. One can waste time trying to refute Hitler's argument point by point or one can logically point out that he is a Nazi on a genocidal binge and it is as simple as that. Most scholars would not waste precious time and resources, which could be devoted to a serious subject to study, devoted to refuting pranksters and phonies like Steve Baldwin.

There is a white supremacist named Philip Rushton who has books detailing how Black people are intellectually inferior. He cites fossil evidence and statistics of all sorts in trying to prove his opinion. Most of the attention he gets is not from the scientific community but on talk shows and in pop culture. In other words, people who may not be able to evaluate the merit of the study but are attracted by its hype and sensationalism. When researches confront the guy, on these same talk shows, with the fact that most of his research is financed by racist foundations and Nazis Rushton's typical response is similar to yours. “You are attacking the arguer not the argument” etc. But who are Nazis to command all of our scholarly attention?

Why waste time refuting all of his statistics? To show people who might be influenced or believe him that he is wrong? No way! Anyone who at the periphery of believing his racist nonsense is already a racist to begin with.

You pretend that the “results of a scientific study” is what stands in between people being bigots and not being bigots. In fact if they need such studies to persuade them then they are already bigots. Think about it.
Alex made the strongest point.


Amen to that one!

May God Have Mercy on Us Ignorant Folk

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

Aklie,

you are of course correct. Sexual activity outside the context of marriage is always immoral. IMHO, the stigma of homosexual sexual activity is that it is unnatural(in the sense of the natural law) and immoral in every case, whereas heterosexual sexual activity is natural (in the sense of the natural law) even when it is immoral (adultery, fornication). In the context of marriage, sexual activity between the husband and wife is blessed by God. Yet the Church calls everyone to chastity according to their state in life, husband and wife to marital chastity , as well as single men and women to celibate chastity.

However, what happens is that some people jump to the conclusion that when a person identifies himself/herself as homosexual ipso facto the person is engaged in sexual activity. I can't imagine that heterosexuals are identified by their sexual activity. We are sexual beings, but we are more than sexual activity.

One last comment on this thread. Those of us who are Catholic either Eastern or Roman must read Michael Rose's, "Goodbye Goodmen". If you haven't got it yet take a look at the reviews at Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0967637112/customer-reviews/qid%3D1021671897/sr%3D8-1/ref%3Dsr%5F8%5F1/102-6262247-0712925

Dan Lauffer

Aklie,

When you make stupid accusations against me you show how little you know. If you knew what you were talking about and not just "foaming at the mouth" I might take the time to respond seriously to you. But that would surely be a waste of time.

Axios,

I have never shown anger toward gays. I have often expressed anger at lax bishops, at priests who don't keep their vows, and at lay people who unfairly criticise priests or who don't speak out against sin. I have also expressed anger with some ideas that are afloat.

With that I have said all I intended on this thread.

Dan Lauffer

In all fairness, there was nothing "stupid" about what Alkie or axios said.

When you make stupid accusations against me you show how little you know. If you knew what you were talking about and not just "foaming at the mouth" I might take the time to respond seriously to you. But that would surely be a waste of time.

Stated in plain English and not obscurantism the translation is:


BTW what stupid accusation did I make of you? You shouldn't post stupid articles by stupid people and stupidly back them with out doing your homework first. Go back to college and re-take “Critical Thinking 101.”

I am out I have a nice Ethiopian Orthodox Drama event to attend.

May you all have a blessed and un-biased weekend.

Aklie Semaet