www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News BC Monastery to join OCA?

From my parish priest who, himself, was a former Byzantine Catholic regarding this matter. He, along with our parish president was at the diocesean meeting in Bethlehem when this was announced.

OrthoMan
----------

Bob: The Holy Cross Monastery in Fla. was thouroughly investigated and cleared by the police and courts of anything and everything the media reported! There was a"so-called" monk who was involved in a murder...was not affiliated with the monastery,and the monastery was innocent of accusation.
Met.Herman had a long meeting with Bishop Pataki of the Passaic eparchy because the monastery was under his omophorion.According to Met.Herman, Bishop Pataki gave it clear billing and released it to the OCA since it would have been useless to "force" it to remain with the BCs.

Metropolitan Herman is also very good friends with the former Bishop...Michael Dudik whom I also know very well. Personally,I have no fear nor quams about accepting the monastery. Besides its a beautiful monastery. Orthodox style chapel and ikonography included. Fr.Dan

And what is implicit in that viewpoint is the naivete to think that the OCA has not already been apprised of the situation by Bishop ANDREW (which, to my knowledge, he and Metropolitan HERMAN have spoken), or worse yet, that the OCA is facilitating in some cover-up with the Monastery. It also occured to me that I trust Bishop ANDREW has already dealt with the situation, now years old, and that, in fact, there is no further situation to deal with, other than the doubts in the minds of those who did not trust that the monks were innocent of these charges. The self-confessed murderer is in the hands of the law, and he chose to make accusations which have not been proven.

It is sad that, two years later, now that they have decided to join the OCA, one last "parting shot" had to be given. The "Memory Eternal" was in direct response to the posting of the date of their reception into the OCA.

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas,

So I'm not stupid after all?

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Fr. Thomas,

My comments were meant as true concern for the OCA, which I hold in high esteem not to imply the OCA hasn't looked into it at all or that they were complicit in a cover. Rather, I wonder whether they have all the information. As well, whether innocent or not, pleading the 5th is not the behavior I would expect of a monk or cleric, nor is it in line with the Catholic bishop's new policy which requires full cooperation with the law. If I offended I ask forgiveness but I think my concern is valid.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

[I wonder whether they have all the information.]

From what my parish priest says it sure sounds like they thoroughly investigated the situation. Besides, Bishop Pataki gave it a clear billing and I doubt that he is the type of Bishop that would do such a thing if there were still problems and/or questions.

I guess only time will tell.

OrthoMan

Fr. Thomas is right on the money here. No hierarch in today's litigative climate is going to take on that kind of potential liability without due dilegence. Which has been obviously exercised in this case by Metropolitan Herman. May God bless him and them abundantly.

Dear Orthoman,

I'm sure you'll agree that one has to beware of all uniates, even when they want to join Orthodoxy.

But you are more than correct.

Who da man?

You da man!

You da ORTHOman!

God bless,

Alex

I'm not sure that pleading the fifth ammendment is not "cooperating with the law" since the law indeed grants us that right. That is, it is a legal plea. Pleading the fifth is not an admission of guilt at all, in which, it seems to this legal layperson, would be more in line with the plea "no contest" in which guilt is not pled, but the evidence is overwhelming. Here, there was no evidence to back up these charges, but it may have been under advisement from their attorneys that this was done. None of us know.

In any event, I go back to my original statement that I trust that the matter was handled by Bishop ANDREW in a responsible matter, and that no legal matter at all is being handled by Metropolitan HERMAN.

I would also say that, in my opinion, I do not give up my fifth ammendment rights as a priest, while still being fully compliant with the authorities. But this would the matter for another interesting thread.

Priest Thomas

Dear Friends,

At the risk of sounding stupid yet again, I was wondering about how Byzantine Catholics feel, really feel, when one of their communities goes over to Orthodoxy?

I imagine there is a sense of sadness, which is natural.

One of our most popular priests became Orthodox in my parish.

He got a good recommendation from our bishop too!

There were those who felt "Well, what can you do in the Orthodox Church that you can't do at the parish of St Nicholas?"

Others actually voiced their view that he "went over" because of the issue of money . . .

There were other comments as well!

And his Orthodox bishop did make a public statement, picked up by the press, that "no one owns anyone here" etc.

Ultimately, I think there was a sense of betrayal that was prevalent, but people got over it.

And I understand that this is not the first time that Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholics have joined Orthodoxy.

Do you feel a sense of betrayal, in addition to a sense of loss?

Do you feel, as we have, that you've somehow failed to be as "Orthodox as possible" and that the individuals in question felt that "more Orthodoxy" is to be found in an Orthodox jurisdiction?

Can one be Orthodox as well as Eastern Catholic and still be "Ruthenian?"

Is that even an issue with your Church?

Please fill in the ignorance of this stupid person.

Alex

I am afraid to bring this up, because I know it will be misinterpreted.


Nevertheless, I will do so as an academic question, and in a conversational tone of voice. Really, I am curious.

With all due respect for the ever-charitable Fr. Thomas, at whom this post is not directed as a slam or anything else, I have a question for Alex and Diak:


The UGCC honors countless martyrs who suffered unspeakable, excruciating torture and ignominious death at the hands of Communists--within the memory of living men--rather than leave the Catholic Church for Orthodoxy.

Why do the Ukrainian Catholics here greet this voluntary defection with joy rather than sorrow? Although they are not Ukies, this community is voluntarily leaving the union that their brother Greek Catholics suffered and died to defend.

Would sorrow be out of place?


LatinTrad

LatinTrad,
I agree.

I am full of sorrow for this act.

And I have one more question to add, can one really call two monks a community?

I will keep my mouth shut as to why I think some Catholics here find joy in such a defection to stay charitable.

I would like to add a musing on my part here also.

I don't think this would be the first time in history that a bishop gave something a "clean bill of health" in order to rid himself of it.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Dear Father Thomas:

You yourself expressed some solicitude about the jurisdiction hopping. Given the trouble over the Holy Order of MANS, and the continuing saga of the JP in America - let alone turn of the century history - it can hardly be called naive (maybe cynical, maybe diligent, but not naive) to wonder about the factors that may underlie jurisdiction hopping and the diligence done in overseeing it.

Having said that, I am very glad that Bob wrote in with some specific information about the inquiry (couldn't find anything in the media after the inital reports), and the interaction between Bishops on this matter.

LT, do you not still wish well for a family member that leaves the home? Even if you do not agree with their reasons for leaving? You grossly simplify what can be a very emotional and complex situation.

What this monastery has to do with defending the Union during the Soviet holocaust I do not see. Nor do I appreciate even an insinuation that by in Christian charity wishing them to follow their conscience is doing anything to dishonor the New Martyrs.

This is a voluntary act of conscience rather than a coersion. You simply cannot cut and paste the circumstances of 1946 and after onto this situation. I also do not see why wishing God's blessings on those who wish to follow their conscience is somehow sinful or wrong. I am not sure how and where you have determined "joyful" as you insinuate.

I would also point you to the example of Lev Gillet and Metropolitan Sheptytsky. And I am sure when Fr. David Anderson joined the UGCC, there was also similar feelings as also when St. Lenoid Federov and others approached union. This is not an isolated circumstance.

The "back and forth" has occurred and continues to occur quite frequently since the Union and will continue to occur because of the sin and pain of disunity.

Dear LatinTrad,

Excellent question, Big Guy!

First of all, who is overjoyed to see those monks go? Not I, but when they have made their decision, what else can we do but wish them well with our prayers in Christ?

I know that your Church used to use more physical means of keeping people on the straight and narrow - but I don't think they are strictly legal in today's society

And it is not the same thing as RC's becoming Protestants or joining a schismatic group like the SSPX.

Remember that the Union with Rome is a temporary thing. We have not lost all ties with our Mother Orthodox Churches and our destiny is to one day be reunited with them - in God's good time and under circumstances of God's design.

The Union with Rome has been discredited by RC theologians today and that model of church unity has been abandoned. This is why Rome refuses to accept groups wishing to establish another "uniate" type relationship with it, including Anglican parishes.

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Martyrs did not die ONLY for union with Rome.

We, as North Americans, like to think so, but that would be a severe reduction of the comprehensive circumstances that led to their deaths.

Those Martyrs died for THEIR Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Yes, it was and is in union with Rome.

But for them to "go over" to Russian Orthodoxy constituted a betrayal not only of their Catholic faith and loyalty to Rome, but, in some sense even more significantly, a betrayal of their immediate spiritual/cultural community and identity, a "knuckling under" so to speak to a stronger spiritual-cultural entity that had tried for years to "get them" and, in 1946, had the means to absolutely achieve this within the context of a military invasion and national subjugation.

In fact, prior to that experience, many Ukrainian Catholics opted to join Orthodoxy under the influence of such Orthodox leaders as St John Pommer of Riga and Met. Antony Khrapovitsky - who was very sympathetically viewed by Galician Greek Catholic intelligentsia and even by Met. Andrew Sheptytsky himself.

In those years, to be a "Catholic" meant to be a Pole i.e. a traitor to your own people. In Orthodox Volyn, near the Polish border, insurance for the wooden Orthodox churches was withdrawn by the state and this allowed their burning and the martyrdom of Ukrainian Orthodox priests and laity.

Met. Andrew, although a Greek Catholic, opposed this Orthodox persecution vociferously to the Polish government - many Orthodox looked and still look upon his memory with esteem as a result.

I've met Ukrainian Orthodox priests who honour the memory of Ukrainian Catholic martyrs - and vice-versa. Ultimately, we, as a community, are divided religiously and in history by imperial powers on both sides that strove to destroy us as a people. Ultimately too, many of us see beyond those divisions.

If a Ukrainian Catholic today told me he wanted to join the OCA, would I be upset? I don't think so. That is that person's decision and while I would want to know what precipitated it (religious gossip is always so much fun, don't you think?), who can stop them from doing what they will do anyway?

And why can't I respect that person who, as I've seen in a number of cases, becomes an excellent, church-going Christian in the OCA (or ROCOR), enthusiastic for the Life in Christ etc.?

I know many former Ukrainian Catholics in the OCA and I know that the OCA fully respects Ukrainian identity and culture. Can one be Ukrainian and a member of the OCA? Absolutely.

My loyalty to the Ukrainian Catholic Church does involve the papacy, yes. But it is still a composite loyalty that involves more than the papacy.

But even the Pope, who is from Poland, and is a great son of his beloved country, put these words on his papal robes:

Polonia Semper Fidelis!

Alex

There is no doubt that it is a problem. And the problem that Latin Trad brings up is also a concern for us, both in the same way that he speaks of it, and in the reverse. (For the record, I of course, do not condone the actions of any Orthodox Christians - and I use that term loosely - who harmed or killed anyone in the name of Christ for wanting to remain Eastern Catholic. However, a reading of Russian history shows that this was as much, if not moreso, political and nationalistic, than religious. I also do not condone the actions of Patriarch Alexei II in not being more charitable of Roman Catholics in Russia, but again, I do not blame Orthodox Christians in Russia for being very leery of any Western presence in Russia.)

However, since we're having a bit of a reality-fest here, I will tell you that I will accept no converts accept for reasons of the faith, and only the faith. I have a former Anglican and a former Roman Catholic right now that will be chrismated into the Orthodox faith in December. I've made it very clear to them that they cannot be running away from something, but rather to Orthodoxy. I do not consider going from Byzantine Catholicism to Orthodoxy "jurisdiction hopping" although it's as close as you can get to it, without actually doing it. Jursidiction hoppping is a horrendous problem in America, and the greatest weakness of Orthodoxy. However, it seems our Greatest Stregth overcomes these temporary weaknesses.

And as I've told Latin Trad before, there's enough blood to go around. It's all very sad and I know that no one on this board would ever condone or dismiss such things. These things happened and we have to move beyond them.

Priest Thomas