www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News BC Monastery to join OCA?

Thank you for the response, Diak.

I remind you that I asked a question and did not make an argument. I do grant you that my own belief was apparent from my question, however.

I cannot discuss Conscience without relation to Reality. The logical conclusion of your post is that we should simply affirm everyone's "conscience," simply because it is their conscience. My point was the following:

--The New Martyrs died because they believed that Union with Rome was (objectively) the only Way.
--The UGCC honors the New Martyrs, therefore
--The UGCC believes that Union with Rome is the only Way.


Thus, I was wondering why all the UGCC members here seemed to be all gung-ho and happy about this monastery's decision to defect.

I am also troubled by the suggestion that it is okay to do voluntarily what one could not even do under threat of death.


LatinTrad

Alex and Fr. Thomas, THANK YOU--I'm sorry but you posted while I was typing.

[I'm sure you'll agree that one has to beware of all uniates, even when they want to join Orthodoxy.]

On the contrary Alex, I rejoice every time a prodigal son or daughter returns home to their true family.

I'm only beware of those who already think they are back home while they are still living in a 'half way house' and have yet to realize it!

Have a nice day big guy!

OrthoMan

About 30 years ago, when a group of Greek-Catholic monks in France left and joined themselves (jurisdictionally speaking) to a monastery on Mount Athos, Patriarch Maximos V commented that it is impossible to offer an objective justification of a breach in Communion with the Catholic Church - but it is necessary to ask very searching questions to determine why such things occur and what the monks may have found in Eastern Orthodoxy which they felt unable to find in the Greek-Catholic Church. Incognitus

Dear LatinTrad,

What you say is true - but the New Martyrs were killed by atheists, not by Orthodox.

The Orthodox Church has very many New Martyrs of the Soviet Yoke - and I, as an Eastern Catholic, venerate them all, and I know many others who do as well.

The Soviet state was the one that was complicit in the "synod of 1946" and not the Russian Orthodox Church.

As far as I know, tanks and military might are not allowable under the Canons of the Church

And I think we Eastern Catholics and Orthodox have come a long way in friendship and understanding since then.

Many Orthodox Christians helped the cause of the underground UGCC, including several ROCORites, as I've heard.

Orthodox and Eastern Catholics of E. Europe share in a common heritage of New Martyrdom under the Soviet Yoke.

It was Fr. Lev Gillet, former EC assistant to Met. Andrew Sheptytsky, who became Orthodox and told his mother, "I am not going to another light, but to a clearer light."

There is no record of Met. Andrew stomping the ground, hitting the furniture with his fist or cursing under his breath at the news of Fr. Lev's going over to Orthodoxy .

Fr. Lev is known as the writer who called himself "A Monk of the Eastern Church."

Alex

Dear Orthoman,

I think I'm where God wants me to be right now - and perhaps always.

I think you are where God wants you to be.

This is what a Russian Orthodox priest told me.

So it must be true, I would have to say . . .

And don't you give me credit for defending the Orthodox here, as Fr. Thomas does?

So has that application of yours to be a director of ecumenical and church relations of the OCA been accepted yet?

Father Thomas, never mind about the historical stuff, what are you going to do about Orthoman?

(You don't have to answer that . . . I know you can't be held responsible for the sins of spiritual youth ).

". . . and all you Orthodox Christians, may the Lord God remember in His Kingdom, now and always and unto the ages of ages!"

Alex

Faith involves more than just purely reason. And I said nor concluded no such thing.

LT, if these monks are moving to a Church which in the words of the Catholic Church itself, reiterates in Unitatis Redintegratio: "belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church" I really don't follow your discourse. Your conclusion is yours and not the conclusion of my post. Please don't conclude my thoughts with oversimplified determinism.

Also it was your judgement call that we were somehow being "joyful" or "gung ho". Matters of conscience are not always black and white nor able to be understood with those three-line deterministic reductions as you did with 500 years of complex history above.

I am unsure what kind of broad picture you are trying to paint here. Again, I do not see why wishing God's blessings for someone who, in the words of the Catholic Church herself, "belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church", regardless of personal opinion, is somehow wrong or erroneous nor does violence to the memory of our New Martyrs.

And as Alex so well mentioned, the UGCC is not the only Church with new martyrs, as every Orthodox Church under Soviet oppression had much blood spilled for fidelity to their Church and Christ.

This shows some of the issues I am starting to have here.

If a latin catholic would have made a comment like OrthoMan just did, everyone around here would jump all over him.

But when it is made from the other side, no one notices.

I think we need to examine our priorities a bit.

And I will add...

Shame!


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Don't you mean, "Christians of the True Faith?" At least, that's what I heard the official translation was.

PT

"Halfway House" - you gotta hand it to Bob to always come up with new triumphalistic digs around here. That kind of nonsense is really not called for.

He should go through All-Night Vigil at some of our Studite houses and see if he has the same opinion .

Fr. Thomas, 'Orthodox Christians' is the official 1988 Synodal English translation of the UGCC as is for the Melkites. The Ruthenian Greek Catholics use that version that you mention.

Two outta three aint bad.

Alex,

I well remember what my Byzantine Catholic Spiritual Father told me when I was just contemplating becoming Orthodox "I have had many Spiritual Children go to become Orthodox and as long as you are going TOWARDS Orthodoxy and not running AWAY from the Eastern Catholic Church out of bitterness or lack of understanding, then I give you my blessing"

I will ALWAYS bless him and all of my friends in the Byzantine Catholic Church for their love and support (and I'm finding in the Orthodox Church that through my discussions with some people, especially converts to Orthodoxy from Protestant traditions, they are adopting a less monochrome vision of the Eastern Catholics which I am thankful to God for)

Alex,

Although I'm not Eastern Catholic (well, not even Catholic!), I'll take a swing at these questions.

Yes, it is distressing and saddening that these monks thought it necessary to cut communion with Rome and to ally themselves with the OCA. However, if this is what they deem pressing and important to their faith, then I think one can only be happy for them. I feel a sense of loss, but not a sense of betrayal.

In short, I am happy that they will (hopefully) become "spiritually healthier," but disappointed that they thought they couldn't accomplish this within the Catholic Church.

I think this should be incentive for Eastern Catholics to continue on their road to fully exemplify themselves as "Orthodox in communion with Rome." I do think that many leave Eastern Catholicism because they view Eastern Orthodoxy as "more Orthodox." It's the job of the Eastern Catholic Churches and their peoples to downsize this difference.

Logos Teen

Dear David,

Don't you think I jumped on Orthoman enough?

I even "told" on him to Fr. Thomas.

I'm sure Fr. Thomas is upset by Orthoman's attitude . . .

I can't imagine a worse dig than to tell on someone to one of their priests.

It was actually nasty of me.

But I don't think I'll lose any sleep over it tonight

Why are you so combative?

Have the Latins here recruited you to be their Eastern Defender?

Alex