www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall What are the rules for Priest's wives ?

Lance,

I am well thank you. You are welcome to come visit at any time.

Having 'cigarrette breath' or being a stranger in a parish (and not introducing oneself to the priest) in one thing, maving a medical necessity is another. I cannot speak for ROCOR (I hope someone can) but in the OCA this is not the case (I have questioned on this point rather thoroughly).

I would like to carry on this conversation but out of this forum.

I hope all is well in Canonsburg. Where/How is Fr. Joseph, BTW?

Tony

The model for fasting is the same for all people in the Eastern Orthodox Church: clergy, monastics, laity. As with any rule, we expect those who teach and "enforce" (an admittedly poor choice of word) the rule to keep to it most strictly. When ordained, the priest is told by the ordaining bishop as he gives him the lamb, "you shall answer for this."

The presbytera is usually expected to model this rule for the women, although not to be scrutinized as strictly as her husband's obligation to model it for all.

All of the preparation should be appropriate for the individual communicant, but that does not make the rule or canon relevant. The rule or model always remains, while individuals diverge from it for various reasons. Some reasons being good ones (medical, travel, pregnancy) and other ones not so good (laziness, gluttony, lust).

Confession and communion are linked, but not one to one. The Russian practice has been frequent confession as proper and required preparation for the eucharistic. The Byzantine churches have seen confession as only "required" to restore one to communion (sins which exclude us from communion include murder, but also fornication, manslaughter, etc. The RCC calls these mortal sins). But the Byzantines recognize that frequent confession can assist us when battling lesser (RCC: venial) sins as well.

What often has happened is a confusion of the eucharistic preparation and ascetical fasting.
For this reason, people commune infrequently, thinking that their weekly fasting in preparation for the eucharist would need to be like their preparation for the Paschal feast. But the paschal feast is at the end of Holy Week, the strictest ascetical period. So they have ideas that they should eat no meat, fish, or dairy for at least three days prior to communing on a regular Sunday. This is correct for Pascha but not for regular Sundays.

Simplified, the ascetical fasting means "not eating" until approx. 3:00 PM Mondays through Fridays during a lenten period or just Wednesdays and Fridays in non-lenten periods. People keeping this will drink plenty of water, tea, coffee, or other non-alcoholic beverages. Breaking the fast during a lenten period will usually allow oil, but no fish, dairy, meat, or alcohol. During regular Wednesdays and Fridays, we usually break the fast with oil, fish and wine.

Abstaining from olive oil is a separate discussion, a little controversial, and with much historical background.

So the failure to commune frequently is out of a combination of ignorance and piety that was the norm in the Turkish-occupied Balkans or amongst serfs in all the Russias. Zonaras called it "lowliness of mind." We might call it humility.

If we throw out the piety, then we get what we have in some North American parishes, where arrogance runneth over. We often find people communing frequently and also making no preparation, even the minimal "midnight to the eucharist" fast from all food and drink. Even church bodies have dinners in the church during lenten periods that break the fast.

I remember a pious parish that sought to have fish for their nameday dinner because it was being celebrated on a convenient Sunday inside of a fasting period and not on the actual feast day (at which point meat would have been appropriate). The bishop ordered that the barbecue be fired up for hamburgers and hot dogs! Where are we going?

Fasting is supposed to make us stronger. If it makes us weaker, then we are fasting too much/too strictly. Fasting is our custodian. It is somewhat like The Levitical Law, about which Paul said, "if it weren't for the law, I wouldn't have known that I was a sinner." All the while, it is obligatory to fast at least sometimes. During the sermon on the mount, the Lord said "when you fast" He didn't say "if you fast."

I hope that this is helpful.

In Christ.

Dear Friends in Christ,

From a Russian perspective, St Serafim of Sarov said that he who does not observe the Wednes and Fri fasts is not a Christian. While this may seem harsh in our comfort-loving society, it does spell out the fact that Christianity is an ascetic religion. As Archimandrite Sophrony wrote: Where there is a Christian, there is an ascetic. Of course we should prepare for Holy Communion by fasting. Fasting does not make us worthy or prepared, but it does help us to put our lives into perspective. I think the issue of fasting for our over-fed population is seen in terms of abstinence, whereby fasting is some kind of endurance test. True fasting is as beautiful and refreshing as prayer and worship. Fasting is a gift from God and when we realize that it is not based totally on human effort, then we have something to look forward to and enjoy in a spiritual sense; hence fasting before a feast or Holy Communion, in order to prepare us for the celebration. The ROCOR practice which is the traditional practice of the Church is not some extreme, unless you prefer plastic flowers to fresh ones. Glory be to God for the wonderful gift of fasting. That first paschal egg (for instance) is for me the tastiest dish of the year!

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

As an Orthodox priest, and more importantly, an Orthodox Christian, I find this charactarization of Orthodox praxis rather distorted. Although we can "observe" certain things like the frequency of communion or confession in other parishes, or hear stories about smelling smoker's breath and being refused communion, the fact of the matter is that this is not the common Orthodox practice. Now if you're looking for complete and utter uniformity in every single parish with every priest and every bishop, you'll never find this. We are under grace. However, we can also discern that there are certain standards that all Orthodox Christians hold to. No one who is sick or on medication is going to be told by any priest that they MUST fast COMPLETELY. However, there are some communicants that also want to abuse this liberty, so going to Denny's for the all-you-can-eat breakfast buffet an hour before communion just becuase you have to take a pill is not going to cut it with any reasonable Orthodox priest.

I can also tell you that if you visit my church and I don't know you, and you approach the chalice, you will be asked your name, where you go to church, and if you're properly prepared to receive communion. The great majority of priests that I know do the same. I'm not the sacrament police, but I am dispensing the sacraments as a minster of God's Holy Table. If I were not, I'd just set the chalice on the tetrapod and let the people drink freely. When I was ordained, I was specifically given the agnets and charged to "guard it" and told that I "will give an account for it at the dread judgment." No Orthodox Christian should approach the chalice when visiting a church without previously informing the priest. When they don't, (my parishioners are always reminded to, when visiting another parish) they get questioned. No, I don't ask them rudely. But I have a "right" to know. And yes, on Christmas and Pascha I do announce before communion that "holy communion is reserved for Orthodox Christians who have property prepared themselves by prayer and fasting" due to the great number of non-Orthodox visitors. But we still allow them at coffee hour.

If anyone wants to learn more about the Orthodox preparation for communion, an excellent article by Fr. Thomas Hopko, Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary can be read at http://www.svots.edu/Events/Orthodox-Education-Day/Articles/2000-Fr-Thomas-Hopko-2.html .

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Fr. Thomas,

I must ask you and my other Orthodox brethren's forgiveness. My post was worded poorly and the comparison was a distortion so I have edited it.

However, I do have to ask for a clarification. Do not a significant portion of Orthodox priests absolutely expect Confession before every Communion? I have been led to believe many do. My main point was that in the Catholic Church one is never going to be turned away from the chalice unless they are guilty of notorius, public sin. In the Orthodox Church, one may be turned away for what to Catholics would seem a minor violation.

In Christ,
Lance

Before Communion is given in my OCA parish, my priest announces that Orthodox Christians should approach who have prepared themselves through prayer and fasting and have been to Confession at least since last Pascha. Of course, he encourages us to come to the Mystery much more but this is the minimum.

My SPiritual Father in the Byzantine Church used to advise going to Confession at the 12 major Feasts at least but constantly urged against "laundry list" confessions which indeed is SO important.

The requirement of confession before every communion is not the requriement in the majority of Orthodox Churches, at least in the this country, and I would expect this practice is spreading rapidly, if it has not already. You may find this practice among some priests of ROCOR and of others self-proclaimed old calendarist jurisdictions, but even this is not uniform. As the paper of Fr. Hopko states, those who practice frequent communion are not required to confess before each one, however those who commune infrequently must confess before each one. The same thing goes for prayer and fasting. Those who commune infrequently should use a much more severe formula for preparation. All of this assumes that the Christian takes it seriously, which no one can control. Anyone can march to confession and rattle off a few "sins." There is no secret there. But Orthodoxy is much more than fulfilling a few requirements.

In regards to the major or minor violations issue, I think this is indicative of the times. Certainly however, you cannot compare Orthodox and modern Catholic fasting practices. To an Orthodox Christian, fasting is an essential requirment (for those who are healthy and able bodied) to recieve the body and blood of our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ. It can last for around 12 hours - nothing by mouth. However, I am not a Catholic, but it is my understanding that Catholics are only required to fast for one hour before communion, so it seems to me that this is indeed a "minor issue" to them. If I am wrong, my apologies.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Dear Friends in Christ,

To quote yours truly:

<The ROCOR practice which is the traditional practice of the Church is not some extreme, unless you prefer plastic flowers to fresh ones>. I would like to add that Traditional practice - I hate to use this term but we have to distinguish between the standard and the innovation - is to confess before Holy Communion. When parishioners commune regularly as recommended by St Macarius of Corinth et al..then parishioner may receive a blessing to commune instead a full confession, at the discretion of the priest.

I am not quite sure I understand the reference to "other self proclaimed" Old Calendarists. Perhaps we are forgetting that MP, Serbian and JP are old calendarists and that the same rules apply to preparing for Holy Communion. I have heard that some modernist Orthodox parishes now hear general confession instead of personal confession - but that would need a new thread!

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim
Patriarchate of Jerusalem

I think the reference to "self-proclaimed" Old Calendarists would refer to schismatic groups like HOCNA.

Fr. Serafim,

Christ is in our midst!

I, of course, was not referring to the venerable and canonical Patriarchates in any sense, but rather to those, especially in America, who have caused various schisms and are not in communion with the Church. There are, unfortunately, a plethora of these groups here and there, who have "set themselves up" as "self-proclaimed" saviors of the Church. There are almost too many to name: HOCNA, ROCiE, etc...

Regarding the old calendar itself, there is, of course, no argument. Our own Orthodox Church in America has many old calendar parishes.

But as guest on this Byzantine Catholic forum, I would be happy to discuss this further with you off line, if you wish. My apologies to the forum for the digression.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

I'm glad that we have digressed a bit, but also would like to return to the main theme, Theodore's original question.

We have several clergy participating here. Could we hear some more regarding the role of the priest's wife and what are her responsibilities and priveledges in parish and diocesan life? Perhaps some examples of life in this very special position.

Dear Friends,

I grew up with grandparents who were Presbyter and Presbytera respectively of course.

My grandmother said that the first thing a good Presbytera should do is offer a witness of a solid prayer life.

She prayed for over half an hour morning and night, and prayed often to the Mother of God for parishioners who regularly asked her prayers. She also attended daily Divine Liturgy and Communion.

She organized her husband and kept him in check with respect to his behaviour toward parishioners.

She did that with me too, but I was her one great failure in that department .

Women of the parish preferred to speak with her about their intimate issues and problems. She often saw them in our living room.

She was truly the heart and soul of the parish and of my grandfather's ministry.

I once saw her stitching an embroidered towel.

"Why are you bothering yourself with that, Grandmother?" I asked her.

"This is for you to keep all your life, Alex," she replied.

"Whenever you look at it, I hope you'll remember me and say a prayer for me," she concluded.

I had it framed and it hangs on the wall. I look at it, see the stitched Crosses and truly do think of her.

And I remember to pray for her.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thanks for presenting a positive and joyous role model. You have been blessed!

A celibate priest once said that he had heard the confessions of presbyteroi (fem. plural?) at a clerical retreat in North America and was left with the overwhelming impression of them as a thoroughly embittered and frustrated group of women.

I have seen both "types." Perhaps your grandmother's faith helped her to overcome what does seem to easily become an embittering and frustrating role in a secularized society.

We could look at this two or three ways:

1. society has changed in ways that make the role more difficult.

2. clergy and their wives have changed in ways that make the role more difficult.

3. Both have changed in ways that make the role more difficult.

What do you (and others) think?

Warms regards, in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Friends in Christ,

I have never come across any 'rules' applying to priests' wives i.e Matushki, Presbyteras etc. Surely the role of the Matushka is to support the priest through prayer and mutual spiritual support. Her role in the parish, as far as I know, is to remain in the background, but to be available to those who need her. May be she should be like the Mother of God, who was not an Apostle or pursued a case for feminist rights! She is our role model in Her humility and non-obstrusive nature "And Mary ponder all these things in her heart".

My Matushka doesn't read these posts(!) and so I can say from experience that she is supportative in her quiet (and occasionally not so quiet) way. That she directs the choir, is a necessity since we don't have a director as yet. Yes she bakes the prosphora for the people - I bake the altar breads ('cos I like to!). She does all those jobs that need to be done, such as making vestments for servers, sewing, cleaning, cooking and keeping a caring eye on things. She is just a Christian woman like any other parishioner that cares for the Church.

Yours in Christ,
Fr Serafim

Most of the replies have nothing to do with the original question. I would suggest that if you want to digress you should start a new topic. Sometimes the digressions are interesting and I miss them because I am not interested in the original topic and vice a versa