www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Israel, Palestine, Hamas and Christianity

Dear Nonna,

I want to respond to one more thing you quoted in a post:

"It was suggested that establishing Israel was a way to move the Jews out of Britain."

I say:

I don't think that there were that many Jews in Britain. Most of the Israeli Jews came from Eastern Europe, especially Russia. It could be something the Arabs might believe, (great imaginations). The Jews were all expelled from England centuries ago. Actually though, as racist as the British were, they might have been better than other nations.

Many wealthy Jews became Christians and ended up as part of the English nobility. I believe Disraeli, who was Prime Minister under Queen Victoria, was Jewish. But then again, there was also the house of Rothchild in Germany and France, and I believe they were all barons. As here, it was prabably the lower classes that were the most racist.

As an example I recall listening to an Englishman that was a soldier in Russia at the time of the revolution. He said one of the soldiers was taking shots at a Russian general because as an Englishman, he considered himself superior. Little did he realize that the general might have been related to his king.

Now I know that Winston Churchill's mother was an American, and his father was Lord Randolph Churchill. Her mother was an American of French descent, and her grandmother an American Indian. When Winston's father died, his mother wanted to marry a certain noble Austrian.

The marriage could never take place though, because the Austrians were adamant about their lineage, and what they referred to as'quartering'. In other words, they had to make sure that every side of the family was of 'noble' blood. When it came to the English, the Austrians were highly chagrined at the mixed blood.

Zenovia

here was a great item on BBC last night.

BBC interviewed some Chrstian Palestinans and one or two regional Hamas leaders yesterday. I assume that the Christians were members of Fatah or groups to the left of Fatah bewcause of the political line they took.

The Christians were divided on how to respond to the latest news from Hamas. The women interviewed in Ramallah--and one fellow--said that they will resist or leave the country if matters become intolerable. They sounded strongly pro-Fatah or pro-PP.

This would make winning the right to return for all refugees all the more important for us.

Nadeem Khoury, brother-in-law of Maria Khoury and part of the family who own the Taybeh Brewery, took a more accomodating position. Taybeh Brewery is now producing a non-alcoholic beer bottled in "Hamas green" and may produce a root beer as well in the future. Thank God, the brewery is running! It has survived the occupation and Israeli incursions into Taybeh by marketing a great beer in Europe.

The Hamas leaders interviewed spoke in more complex terms and indicated that Hamas is divided on how to proceed.

bob r.

Thank you very much Bob!

I'm not surprised the source would be foreign press. I think sometimes the reason we don't hear about the Christians in the Middle East is due to the biases of the US press.

Certainly there was never much press about all the churches being destroyed in the East.

Dr. Khoury provides an interesting voice in the whole Israeli-Palestinian debate. I find her faith refreshing in the midst of the horror that region experiences each day.

Given the vow of Hammas to establish sharia law I am praying that the Christians in the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority are not going from bad to worse. When I read the piece that Bob posted I could not help but think how the Ukrainians originally welcomed the Nazis as liberators from the Communists.

From some of the Palestinians I have heard interviewed in this past week it seems possible that the vote was less outright support for Hammas and more anti-status-quo.

[PS: Bob, please check to see if the story was copyrighted. If it is, please send me the link and I will update your post to replace it with a link and a summary.]

A statement from Hamas just in. Note the olive branch being extended to Christians.

We appeal to the American people's sense of fairness to judge this conflict in light of the great thoughts, principles and ideals you hold dear.

By Mousa Abu Marzook

DAMASCUS - A new era in the struggle for Palestinian liberation is upon us. Through historic fair and free elections, the Palestinian people have spoken.

Accordingly, America's long-standing tradition of supporting the oppressed's rights to self-determination should not waver. The United States, the European Union and the rest of the world should welcome the unfolding of the democratic process, and the commitment to aid should not falter. Last week's victory of the Change and Reform Party in the Palestinian legislative elections signals a new hope for an occupied people.

The results of these elections reflect a need for change from the corruption and intransigence of the past government. Since its creation 10 years ago, the Palestinian Legislative Council has been unsuccessful in addressing the needs of the people. As the occupation solidified its grip under the auspices of "peace agreements," quality of life deteriorated for Palestinians in the occupied territories. Poverty levels soared, unemployment rates reached uncharted heights and the lack of basic security approached unbearable depths. A grass-roots alternative grew out of the urgency of this situation. Through its legacy of social work and involvement in the needs of the Palestinian people, the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) flourished as a positive social force striving for the welfare of all Palestinians. Alleviating the debilitative conditions of occupation, and not an Islamic state, is at the heart of our mandate (with reform and change as its lifeblood).

Despite the pressures of occupation and corrupt self-rule, Palestinian civil society has demonstrated its resilience in the face of repressive conditions. Social institutions can now be given new life under a reformed government that embraces the empowerment of the people, facilitates freedoms and protects civil rights.

Our society has always celebrated pluralism in keeping with the unique history and traditions of the Holy Land. In recognizing Judeo-Christian traditions, Muslims nobly vie for and have the greatest incentive and stake in preserving the Holy Land for all three Abrahamic faiths. In addition, fair governance demands that the Palestinian nation be represented in a pluralistic environment. A new breed of Islamic leadership is ready to put into practice faith-based principles in a setting of tolerance and unity.

In that vein, Hamas has pledged transparency in government. Honest leadership will result from the accountability of its public servants. Hamas has elected 15 female legislators poised to play a significant role in public life. The movement has forged genuine and lasting relationships with Christian candidates.

As we embark on a new phase in the struggle to liberate Palestine, we recognize the recent elections as a vote against the failures of the current process. A new "road map" is needed to lead us away from the path of checkpoints and walls and onto the path of freedom and justice. The past decade's "peace process" has led to a dramatic rise in the expansion of illegal settlements and land confiscation. The realities of occupation include humiliating checkpoints, home demolitions, open-ended administrative detentions, extrajudicial killings and thousands of dead civilians.

The Islamic Resistance Movement was elected to protect the Palestinians from the abuses of occupation, based on its history of sacrifice for the cause of liberty. It would be a mistake to view the collective will of the Palestinian people in electing Hamas in fair and free elections under occupation as a threat. For meaningful dialogue to occur there should be no prejudgments or preconditions. And we do desire dialogue. The terms of the dialogue should be premised on justice, mutual respect and integrity of the parties.

As the Israelis value their own security, Palestinians are entitled to their fundamental rights to live in dignity and security. We ask them to reflect on the peace that our peoples once enjoyed and the protection that Muslims gave the Jewish community worldwide. We will exert good-faith efforts to remove the bitterness that Israel's occupation has succeeded in creating, alienating a generation of Palestinians. We call on them not to condemn posterity to endless bloodshed and a conflict in which dominance is illusory. There must come a day when we will live together, side by side once again.

The failed policies of the U.S. administration are the result of the inherent contradiction in its position as Israel's strongest ally and an "honest broker" in the conflict. World nations have condemned the brutal Israeli occupation. For the sake of peace, the United States must abandon its position of isolation and join the rest of the world in calling for an end to the occupation, assuring the Palestinians their right to self-determination.

We appeal to the American people's sense of fairness to judge this conflict in light of the great thoughts, principles and ideals you hold dear in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the democracy you have built. It is not unreasonable to expect America to practice abroad what it preaches at home. We can but sincerely hope that you use your honest judgment and the blessings of ascendancy God has given you to demand an end to the occupation. Meaningful democracy cannot flourish as long as an external force maintains the balance of power. It is the right of all people to pursue their own destiny.

Bob,

Please provide references to these statments you post. If you do not we will be forced to assume they are copyrighted and will have no choice but to delete them.

Admin

Alex,

Few people care much for the Palestinians whether they be Christians or Muslims. They have been used as pawns since at least the Ottomon Empire by just about every nation in the world. Does anyone really trust the motives of any nation there? Even Fatah didn't really care for the Palestinian people. But maybe Hamas will be unique without destroying everyone in its path. I don't know that stranger more unexpected things than that have happened but it could.

Administrator,

I too would like to see the links to Bob's articles.

CDL

I received the message by e-mail via Palestinian support networks I belong to.

I understand that the piece by Hamas also ran in the The Washington Post yesterday, but I rarely read The Post these days.

The Maria Khoury articles come without copyright. I have asked her to directly address the accusations made here against Palestinians and her and she said that she would write an article for us.

Does anyone have reason to doubt the veracity of any source or article I sent in?

Be well.

bob r.

I will be happy to provide a daily or weekly basket of links on Palestine from reputable world news sources, and from Palestinians themselves, which support the points I have made here. If this is desireable, please let me know.

Be well.

bob r.

Bob,

I think the issue is not veracity of the source, but what the administrators are concerned about is that if you are posting an entire copyrighted article from a news web site, a URL needs to be included.

If what you posted was actually a "press release" issued by Hamas, then I don't think there's a copyright issue.

Cheers,
Nonna

Regarding the Palestinians, or the Christians of Palestine rather. I've wonderered how many of them are actually genetically Jewish. Some of the first Christian communities were Jewish. I could imagine that Israel would never recognize them as ethnically Jewish...

Has anyone heard about the book Crossbones by Kathy Reichs? it is a novel based on some true anthropological mysteries. Apparently in the real life version of some of this the Israeli authorities are blocking the work of scientists because of the fears of what their forensic genetic tests might reveal about early Hebrews and Christians. (At least that's my imperfect understanding of the controversy).

I don't know what "genetically Jewish" means.

Most people in the mideast are semitic and semitic peoples can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Zoroastrian, Jacobite, Nestorian, in the fire cults, disciples of John the Baptist, Samaritan and more. I know of one surviving Samaritan community and one community which follows John the Baptist. You have to be careful and not confuse race, ethnicty and religion with one another.

Palestines are diverse because of having Jewish, Muslim, European (Crusader)and European (colonizer) roots or influences and intermarriage. There are Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims and Israeli Arabs. The Israeli Arabs have been isolated since 1948 from Palestinians.

Eastern, or so-called "Sephardic," Jews may be racially or ethnically different than Ashkenazi (European) Jews but live relatively difficult lives: the Sephardim form a majority but hold little political or cultural power. God willing, the upcoming Israeli elections will change this.

Sephardic prayers and music are especially beautiful. Many Palestinians likely see the Sephardim as brothers despite the Sephardim having moved so far to the right since the 1960s. If you would like to hear Sephardic prayers or music, I will send you some by post.

I know many Palestinians, Musim and Christian, who regard it as a tragedy that an independent Palestine may not include historic Sephardic communities.

Left wing Arab and Palestinian parties have historically garnered the Christian vote. Hamas just picked up a stronger Christian vote.

I think that it is best to understand and refer to us all--Christians, Muslims and Jews--as part of an Abrahamic family. I know that people on this forum will disagree.

Overall, I also think that it is problematic to view race and genetics as something other than a softly blending spectrum of possibilities. The view of races as separate categories, and as genetics forming race, seems incorrect. The political and cultural extension of this incorrect idea in the region becomes Orientalism. Edward Said's great book on this is a must-read.

Be well.

bob r.

Dear friends:

It's not possible to establish two separated states in such a small territory. Moreover, there are Jews and Arabs both sides of the border, it's not possible to relocate them without causing them harm because there is no more land. And all thanks to the British Protestant Empire!

I do respect the right of the jewish people to exist and have a country of their own. However, I wish those who unbashedly support Israel (the "Jerusalem Embassy" group for example) applied the same criteria in cases such as that of my nation which has been cut in half and has half of its national territory anexed by the force of conquest to other country even though these places have always been Hispanic and Catholic for centuries, with a majority of Mexicans.

Even today, most Americans ignore this part of our common history.

The great SciFi writer, Isaac Asimov, once predicted what was going to happn in the Middle East: people who were evicted from their homeland and would never forget this. He proposed that the only acceptable sollution was to allow controled inmigration of Jews but grant the Holy Land (and Jordan) the status of an International Territory, for all Jews, Muslims and Christians. At that time this was possible, as the religious component of the Middle East politics was not that strong.

Even if the Arabs opposed that, the presence of International soldiers to keep order was more accceptable than a German-Ashkenazi milicia willing to take revenge of what happened to them in WWII.

Dear Bob you posted:

"Our society has always celebrated pluralism in keeping with the unique history and traditions of the Holy Land. In recognizing Judeo-Christian traditions, Muslims nobly vie for and have the greatest incentive and stake in preserving the Holy Land for all three Abrahamic faiths. In addition, fair governance demands that the Palestinian nation be represented in a pluralistic environment. A new breed of Islamic leadership is ready to put into practice faith-based principles in a setting of tolerance and unity."

I say:

Yes the Muslims were always tolerant of other religions as long as those of other religions paid taxes and that the Muslims were not under the leadership of anyone that was not Muslim. In other words, the Muslims must always be in the majority in any nation where they live.

I recall hearing that by a Pakistani Muslim when interviewed on TV. He stated that the Muslims consider themselves persecuted. When the announcer said what do you mean by persecuted, he replied that "we consider ourselves persecuted wherever we are not in the majority".

Now can one truly believe that after all the remarks that have been made by the Arabs througout the world and since the state of Israel existed, that if the Palestinians were given the right of return that they would actually not persecute the Jews and not throw them into the sea?

Zenovia
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Dear Nonna you said:

"Regarding the Palestinians, or the Christians of Palestine rather. I've wonderered how many of them are actually genetically Jewish. Some of the first Christian communities were Jewish. I could imagine that Israel would never recognize them as ethnically Jewish..."

I say:

In order to be Jewish, one must have a Jewish mother. I guess so that they'll be raised with Jewish traditions, values etc. I don't think ethnicity has anything to do with it, although so many of them can trace their ancestry way back. For instance the 'Levi's' are actually direct descendants of the priestly tribe in the Bible.

Now that's different with Greeks. To be Greek one must have a Greek father. If one has a Greek last name, they are still considered to be Greek, and can actually be drafted in the army...that is if a war occurs.

I have to laugh with someone in my family. Now this person was born here and so was his mother. When Greece was ready to go to war over Cyprus, he was in Greece at the time, and told to grab the first plane to anywhere so that he wouldn't be drafted.

Well he ended up in Rome, and his family in London. They say it was quite funny since it was summer and so many Greeks with foreign citizenships were vacationing in Greece. Frightening too, since Turkey is only a few miles from the islands.

Well this might seem a little strange that Greece would consider someone Greek no matter what citizenshi they hold, but one has to consider that if a Greek is kicked out of a nation...and one never knows, (it's happened so many time in Muslim lands), Greece will take them in.

So it is quite good to have a country to go to. I think that's what the Jews want. If Israel were to become a Muslim country, (and it would if there was a right of return), they would be in the same spot they were in before WW II.

You know, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Zenovia

I didn't say any of this. Hamas did. This is a Hamas press release. I posted it to draw attention to the comments on Christians and in line with the discussion thread. If you disagree wth Hamas, you can contact them.

Please note, again, that this does not represent my viewpoint.

Be well.

bob r.