www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Israel, Palestine, Hamas and Christianity

I saw in today's news that Hamas was claiming all of Israel as sacred Islamic ground and wondered where is the voice of the Christians in all of this?

I learned some time ago that the second largest landowner in Israel after the State itself, is the Orthodox church.

In all the controversy between Palestinians and Israelis, one never hears much about the Christians. They must be impacted by all this as well.

Dear Nonna,

If you get on to the thread 'Crimes Against Humanity', you will find quite a few posts on the Palestinian Christians. As for the Orthodox Patriarchate, it is the biggest landowner. They even own the land the Knesset is on, and I can't help but feel that they are highly resented by the Israelis.

Israel is a secular country, and I think the only thing that keeps them from finding ways to toss out the Patriarch, and all clergy, is the financial benefits they gain from the pilgrims.

As for the Palestinian Christians, they have been decreasing in numbers for years. It seems they are being used either as 'pawns', or caught in the middle. There are though many new Christians coming in from Russia and other nations. I recall going through a Roumanian Church during a service in order to reach a 'site'. Quite a shock! I believe it was in Jaffa.

As for Hamas, they are Muslims and believe that no one of another faith should have 'lordship' over them. As long as the Christians are a minority, and abide by their laws, and/or maybe pay a tax, they will be tolerated.

For while at least. By that I mean, until something happens and they begin to feel that their life is in danger. Then they will do what they have always done, immigrate to another country.

Zenovia

Waking Up Under a Green Sky in the Holy Land

By Maria C. Khoury, Ed. D.


An overwhelming shock in the Palestinian Territories was driving to school the day after the elections and seeing the green flags and green banners everywhere in Ramallah. It was announced that the election results would take several days before the final count and no matter how corrupt and negligent the Fatah Party of the late Yasser Arafat has been in the last ten years, it was assumed they would control the majority of the Palestinian Parliament as moderate people who can negotiate peace with Israel. We voted and went to sleep with these comforting thoughts and woke up with 76 out of the 132 seats in the legislative council going to Hamas, the extreme Islamic Resistant Movement recognized by their symbolic green flag. This is the new green sky we must look up to for leadership in the Holy Land.



The Hamas victory in the Palestinian political system simply means that the people were fed up with leaders who did nothing for them. They wanted a change and had limited choices. They want to shoulder the poverty, the poor health care, the Israeli occupation, the 60% unemployment, the absence of a social security system all on Hamas renowned for social services. This overwhelming political gain for Hamas was the only way for the voters to punish the Fatah party that forgot about the people and lived the good life while the majority of the Palestinians suffer to live on a few dollars a day. Even in a small Christian village like Taybeh, 28 votes went to Hamas and I was personally shocked why a Christian would vote for a fundamental Islamic position but it was the only revenge people could take to send a message to the Fatah party that they are fed up and Fatah has simply failed the people with no strategic planning and no political vision for the future.



As a Christian woman under a Hamas government, I am not at all worried that I have to veil up and wear the long skirts, this is the least of my problems and in order to keep walking the footsteps of the Lord, I will certainly follow these superficial rules. What really worries most people on the ground is which way Hamas will focus. Will they select a moderate point of view and transform themselves to be statesmen? Or will they select an extreme religious pro Islamic rule. Is it possible to separate religion from state politics?



In order for the international community to continue support for Palestine, it seems Hamas has no choice but to go moderate and first among all things accept living side by side to Israel. Ramallah is currently one of the few cities in Palestine that is modern, open in culture and thought and has some type of a night life. Most of us want to see Ramallah keep some of these liberal ways of life. Women walking the streets in western clothing have been acceptable. Men and women sitting together in cafes and restaurants do not turn heads. I feel if Hamas wants to be accepted by the world and survive in the long term, it must adjust some of its extreme fundamental view points and at a minimum not change the social and cultural rules in Ramallah. Gaza, Nablus, Hebron and Jenin are opposite social life of Ramallah. It will be very tragic to lose the Ramallah we know and love.



If Hamas selects a strict Islamic position it will isolate Palestine from any financial and moral support that the international community has offered since even before the Oslo Agreement. It will greatly affect our educational system if the Ministry of Education does not allow the current freedom of choice when it comes to the Islamic religion. In private schools, Christian students currently have the choice to take Christian religion instead of Islamic religion. Facing a new curriculum will be a challenge. If Hamas reinforces the strict teachings of the Koran where alcohol is forbidden, my husband better work on a new non-alcoholic Taybeh Beer recipe fast or the Taybeh Brewing Company will be shut down as three breweries closed doors in Iran.



These two alternatives for Hamas will greatly affect our life on the ground. But what worries me more is the struggle that could play out while members of Hamas or others members of the Palestinian Parliament try to influence the leadership for either alternative. We could be at the brink of a civil war or on the road to a moderate and democratic Palestinian state. The first indication of this battle revealed itself the moment Hamas members took down the Palestinian Flag in Ramallah and replaced it with their Party Flag, the green one to celebrate the victory that even Hamas itself did not expect. Of course shooting and fighting followed among all present. This fighting among Palestinians scares me more than seeing Israeli soldiers putting guns to my son�s head on the way to school.



Thus for the moment, all of us on the ground are waiting to see the sky either remain blue or turn green depending which alternative road Hamas will select. Pray for us as we are facing not only the Israeli occupation but the strict Islamic rule. May the ramifications of this political earthquake be bearable. Either way the Christian response if found in Matthew 5: �Love your enemies; Do good to those who hate you; Bless those who curse you; Pray for those who abuse you; Turn the other check to those who strike you.� For the Christian community, the new Palestinian government will be the earthly test for the true witness for Christ.



Note: Dr. Khoury is the chairperson of the Taybeh Orthodox Housing Project which has started to build twelve homes for Orthodox Christian families in Taybeh-Ramallah to help maintain the Christian presence in the Holy Land with the help of the Boston Greek Orthodox Metropolis.

It is entirely possible that the electorate backed Hamas, not for specifically religious reasons, but because many people see no point in the constant surrendering of the rights of the Palestinians to their homes, their land and their country.

"for the international community to continue support for Palestine" . . . Excuse me? I've not noticed this support. What I've noticed or not noticed is of little consequence - but if the Palestinian electorate considers that whatever support the international community is giving is negligible, and that a more realistic approach is called for, then it would seem to behoove the self-proclaimed "democrats" of the world to recognize that decision. Or are we faced with a situation which Tom Lehrer once described in these terms:

"They've got to be protected,
all their rights respected,
'til somebody we like can be elected!"?

Incognitus

Dear Icgonitus you said:

"It is entirely possible that the electorate backed Hamas, not for specifically religious reasons, but because many people see no point in the constant surrendering of the rights of the Palestinians to their homes, their land and their country."

I say:

I don't know what you mean? Certainly there will be less of a peace process with Hamas than there was before. Didn't Hamas say that it claims all of Israel as 'holy' Muslim land.

Now I'm Greek, and I have yet to hear that Alexandria in Egypt is Greek land, even though it was established by Alexander the Great, and they were there until they were thrown out by Nassar. I believe it was about 1960 or 1970.

Nor have I heard that the southern part of Albania is Greek land, even though it was taken over after WWII by communist Albania. I believe that's where Lord Byron's Greek troops were from when they were fighting for Greek independence.

Nor have I heard that Istanbul is Greek land, even though it was always a Greek colony, even before the Emporor Constantine made it the New Rome. The Christians were also in the majority 100 years ago and forced to leave during the pogroms of 1960 and 1970's.

Nor have I heard that Ismir (Smyrna) and the coast of Asia Minor is Greek land, even though they were in the majority, and two million plus were being massacred and being forced into the Aegean in 1923.

Nor have I heard that the Pontus regions of Turkey is Greek land, even though hundreds of thousands were being massacred and forced to immigrate to Greece in 1923.

Now I know that the same could be said by many countries and many people... especially in the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

So tell me, what is going on with the Palestinians? Could it be the 'Muslims' think differently about land than we Christians?

As for what Maria said about support from the international community, The Palestinians depend on financial support from the EU and US to survive. Remember, because of all the suicide bombers, the Palestinians are not allowed to enter Israel to work...and the Muslims have no business class.

What has become fearful is, if that support is not forthcoming from the West, Iran will have to take it's place. The situation must be quite frightening to people like Maria, especially since her livlihood is against fundamental Islamic law.

There is another point though. Maybe the Christians in Tehbeh believe that they would have been better protected by the Palestinian authorities during the recent attacks on them by 300 thugs, if they were a truly Islamic society.

Zenovia

Hi Zenovia! Thanks for pointing me to the other thread.
It's interesting you would say Israel is "secular." My understanding is that the Orthodox Jews actually have quite a bit of control there...I'm trying to remember what it was they were claiming that only marriages performed by them were valid? Or something else. My memory fails me on what it was exactly. But I don't know, does Israel have a concept of separation of church -- or rather synagog and state? That's not my impression, but I could be wrong. I have not studied the situation in much detail, but I have always wondered why one never hears from the Christians. Israel is considered a Jewish state, and yet it seems to me that it really needs to be a pluralistic state given how many different ethnicities claim a piece of the pie.

Dear Nonna you said:

" Thanks for pointing me to the other thread.
It's interesting you would say Israel is "secular." My understanding is that the Orthodox Jews actually have quite a bit of control there.."

I say:

Actually, it was the 'Zionists' that wanted to establish a state of Israel during the last half of the 19th century, probably because of the pogroms in Russia. What they wanted was a purely secular state that would be for the Jewish people.

During WW I, the wealthy Zionists in England pressured the English to give them the land of Palestine. England was in a spot because the people in Palestine resented the Jewish immigrants coming from Europe...but it decided that it would give them some of the land under it's control.

Well, England used it to her best advantage. Her planes threw leaflets down on the German army, saying that Jewish soldiers should not fight for them because it was England not Germany that was their friend, and that they were giving them a homeland...if one should wonder why the Nazi's resented them. Of course there were other reasons too, but that is neither here nor there.

In Israel they follow all the Jewish religious customs such as not serving milk products with meat, etc. I recall that in the morning we would have milk, cheese, fish, eggs, and in the evening when meat was served, there were no milk products. The deserts were made with artificial milk, and frankly you could taste it!

The worse thing though was to be caught on the Sabbath elevator, because on the Sabbath one was not allowed to do anything, even turn on a light. The Sabbath elevator, to one's chagrin should they be on it, would automatically stop at each floor.

As for the Orthodox Jews, I recall seeing leaflets years ago by a certain Orthodox Jewish group saying that Israel shouldn't exist, and that they were a religion not a 'state'. Others though are fanatic about the state of Israel, and many of them had become settlers in territories that were occupied during the six day war. They firmly believe that the land belongs to them because the 'Bible Tells Them So'.

The Orthodox Jews are a minority though. Israel is though, and always was a 'secular' state.

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,
Where have you been? You've never heard that Northern Epirus is Greek land? You've never heard that Constantinople is Greek? Or Smyrna? Or the places from which the Greeks were "ethnically cleansed" by force and violence in the twentieth century, while the English and the French folded their hands and shed crocodile tears?
But it seems to make a difference which side of the street one views things from. There is righteous indignation from the same crocodiles when the Serbs claim what has been their own territory for quite some time and still is their own territory. But when the Greek Cypriots insist on the return of their own lands and homes on Cyprus, something seems to be wrong with that claim - although not in my eyes.

The Palestinians, let's face it, were turned into a sacrificial victim after World War II so that the same people who sat by and shed more crocodile tears over the mass murder of people by the millions at the hands of Nazi Germany could somehow feel better at the expense of the Palestinians, who were not to blame for what the Nazis did. Hamas is not seeking to right the wrongs of even a hundred years ago - but they do want their land back and their country back. The justice of that claim is indisputable.

Incognitus

I learned that one of the foremost schools of Eugenics was based in England and that historically the Brits were just as racist as the Germans. Well eugenics was a quote scientific theory unquote accepted by the dominant cultures in Europe. It was suggested that establishing Israel was a way to move the Jews out of Britain.

The zionists: perhaps they are the most outspoken in the US which is why I've had the impressions I have.

This is part of an official statement by Hamas this weekend which I just heard on television:

They will not recognize the state of Israel.
They will not renounce terrorism.

Lord have mercy!

Alice

Dear Nonna you said:

"I learned that one of the foremost schools of Eugenics was based in England and that historically the Brits were just as racist as the Germans. Well eugenics was a quote scientific theory unquote accepted by the dominant cultures in Europe. It was suggested that establishing Israel was a way to move the Jews out of Britain."

I say:

You are right. The Brits were extremely racist, and I could give quite a few stories. The French though were also, as were all the Western Europeans, and undoubtably the Eastern one's too. The only difference was that the Western one's were racist towards Eastern Europe as well as Southern Europe.

When Adolph Hitler was told by the League of Nations not to increase his armaments, he was furious. He said: How can we obey a group that is composed of people as inferior as the Czechs.

Also one of the reasons for WW I was that Germany was fearful that they would be engulfed with the inferior Eastern culture of the Russians.

There is a book I recall by the Smithsonian called "Apes and Angels". It has pictures of the Irish who were undoubtably suffering from malnutrition, showing how they resembled the apes because of their 'potato' mouths. I was also told by an old WASP man in my youth, how they were taught that the Irish were an Oriental culture. Undoubtably because they were Catholic.

To give you an idea of how far the idea of rascism and this concept of superiority had proceeded in the 19th and early 20th century, one has to look at the early comics of Superman. The Europeans believed that the ancient Greeks were a pure Arian race...which is nonsense, and was proven in another book at the Smithsonian called 'The People of Lerna'. But since the original 'Hellenes' had receding chins and jaw, as did the Romans, Superman is depicted with that receding jaw.

A protruding forehead was a sign that one was bright since it was the furthest from the appearance of the ape, and so on. I even recall my mother telling me that.

Zenovia

Dear Icognitus you said:

"Where have you been? You've never heard that Northern Epirus is Greek land? You've never heard that Constantinople is Greek? Or Smyrna? Or the places from which the Greeks were "ethnically cleansed" by force and violence in the twentieth century, while the English and the French folded their hands and shed crocodile tears?"

I say:

Of course they were Greek lands, but I don't see the Greeks sitting in concentration camps and having the refugees dwelling in poverty and suicide bombers blowing others up in order to reclaim the land. It's gone it's gone.

You said:

" There is righteous indignation from the same crocodiles when the Serbs claim what has been their own territory for quite some time and still is their own territory."

I say:

And there should be righteous indignation when they were forced to leave their homes because of terrorists. Let's see when the time comes that the Dutch, English, Spanish, Italians and French are forced to do the same thing because of Muslim terrorists, if you will be saying the same thing...And believe me, the time is coming.

You said:

"But when the Greek Cypriots insist on the return of their own lands and homes on Cyprus, something seems to be wrong with that claim - although not in my eyes."

I say:

The Greek Cypriots want some sort of restitution, but realize that the new generation of Turks are now as much a part of Cyprus as they were. They are the one's that want Cyprus to be one nation. It is the poverty stricken Turks on the other end, that also wants to unite but is hindered by Turkey and it's demands.

You have to understand that the problem with Cyprus and why a solution was not made sooner was because Turkey wanted rights in certain parts of the Aegean. Greece adamantly refused, and insisted on retaining her rights as far as the laws of the sea are concerned.

Greece also insisted tha Cyprus was a separate nation, and any solution that would be made, would involve only the two ends of Cyprus. The one side Greek, that had become excessively wealthy, and the other side Turkish, that had become poverty stricken with all 'our' money going to retain the Turkish troops.

You have to realize something else though. The Greeks might have been kicked out of Greek lands in the millions, but they were lucky enough to have a country to go to. One that was willing to take them in.

The Serbs today and yesterday in Kosovo also had a country to go to free themselves from terrorism. The Armenians didn't, and that's why so many were exterminated. Neither did the Jews.

Now this is why Israel must and will remain a 'Jewish' state. There is no way they will leave. The Palestinians on the other hand, do have Arab lands to go to, it is just that in the Muslim religion, once a land belongs to Islam it can never be under the control of people that are not Muslim. So we have an immovable object, and an irresistable force.

Zenovia

So true Zenovia. I never understood the purpose of the statutes of limitations in U.S. law, until thinking about ancient grievances and claims.

Many peoples have been the subject of genocide and ethnic cleansing. Many peoples have lost their ancestral homelands. The German holocaust claimed 11 million victims, we often only hear about the six million but many peoples were swept up in their eugenics program. The slavs were considered subhuman too, like the Jews and the Germans would have exterminated more of them than they did, all of them -- if they didn't own guns, and have armies that could fight back.

No one remembers the Armenian holocaust/genocide. And that was even what emboldened Hitler in his atrocities.

The Palestinians were victims, but they also have launched wars in which they lost.

I think the reason why Hamas won the election is because of the pride of the Muslims. They wanted a powerful charismatic leadership and that is what Hamas offered to them independent of its manifesto statements. It satisfies their pride. Just as many people support the Bush administration because they seem to project an image of power and charisma to their constituents who ignore the details.

But I digress. To me there is still pain from all these hurts and losses. There is no statute of limitations in the court of world history and personal experience. I noted that you had mentioned with distain people's memory of the Fourth Crusade. I think there are plenty of reasons why the pain of that still lingers. And it makes me think of the South where the Civil War seems to have just happened yesterday!

The real question, it seems is how can we achieve reconciliation? In my work as a mediator I notice that people repeat grievances when they feel they haven't been heard. It's an uncontrollable impulse. And I have seen how in a mediation when true intimacy is achieved, when the one side hears and the other side feels heard, then resolution becomes possible. So many times, the reparation that has the most value, beyond money, or land, or any other material wealth, is an acknowledgment of wrongdoing, an appreciation of the pain suffered and a sincere apology.

Apologies are just words, but they are also so much more...

I also remember the description of history: History is not what happened, its what we remember.

There is something about being forgotten, unacknowledged that is painful. It silences those who tried to speak out about their suffering or injustice, like a howling wind carries away the sounds emanating from one's throat...

Dear Nonna you said:

"There is something about being forgotten, unacknowledged that is painful. It silences those who tried to speak out about their suffering or injustice, like a howling wind carries away the sounds emanating from one's throat..."

I say:

Beautifully said! I think that is how the Armenians feel. They know that Turkey is not a wealthy nation, and that certainly they would not be able to make reparations after so many years. I believe all they want is an apology and a recognition by the Turkish government that they did commit the attrocities.

Now to play devil's advocate, Turkey was being torn apart after WW I. The lands Turkey still retained in the Middle East were being carved up by England. Basically, she had very little land that she could really call her own, and a very high population, so she became quite brutal in her reaction.

Now I have heard that if Turkey remained an Islamic state and Attaturk did not try to make it a purely secular modern one, those attrocities probably would not have occurred. So there are pro's and con's to everything.

Zenovia

Dear Incognitus,

And where have you been?

Do you deny that Hamas was the creation of the U.S. and its allies to be a "counter-balance" to Fatah?

That Hamas was trained and supplied until it turned on the U.S. and Israel?

Did not the U.S. train and supply Saddam Hussein? Did the U.S. not release Ayatollah Khomeini and helped bring down the Shah of Iran?

This is simply another case of U.S. foreign policy mismanagement.

To say that this or that party or power cares about the fate of the Palestinian people and their plight - is simply naivete to the nth degree.

Alex