www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Israel, Palestine, Hamas and Christianity

More nuanced views which would seem to correct what we are hearing:

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1426.cfm

and

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1425.cfm

and

http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/mod/news/ID/16/SubMod/NewsView/NewsID/1424.cfm

Note particularly the understanding that Hamas cannot be easily written off as Islamicist.

One Love.

bob r.

Bob,

In additon to your links, there is another news article that is along the same vain.
CNA News Story [cwnews.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Nonna you said:

"This is a surprisingly ignorant statement that demonstrates your own biases Zenovia. You point to letters by Northerners as if there's some authority in the source -- as if somehow the fact of these letters are evidence of "truth". Who cares what Whites in the North had to say about what the "Blacks knew" or what the Blacks experienced as servants to the Southern Whites.

I say:

I merely quoted what I read by those visiting from the North and what they observed and heard at the time they visited. We have to remember that everything is relative...that is everything except sin.

The whites writing those letters were relating the blacks in the South to their own servants; either free or bonded in the North. In their opinion they found the plantation owners wives very sacrificial, to the point where they would stay up all night in order to doctor them and their children, or help them through labor.

The slaves also knew at the time, that their situation was quite favorable in comparison to the conditions of the blacks in the Caribbean. That does not mean the conditions they were living in was not deplorable.

Did you know that Andrew Carnegie, the so called great benefactor that built libraries and so forth, allowed his workers to take off only one day a year...the Fourth of July. They worked, I believe, about 15 hours a day, even on Sunday and religious holidays.

He constantly encouraged one company to compete with another so they would produce more and more.

At one time a friend of his from Scotland visited, and he wanted to show him his working man's 'utopia'. When his friend saw the deplorable conditions they were living in, for at that time Pittsburgh was black with soot, his friend told him that he had now seen 'hell'.

You said:

"To understand what the blacks knew and experienced you should ask the Blacks themselves."

I say:

As I mentioned, the slaves stated themselves at the time that their conditions were better than those in the Caribbean.

You said:

" Have you ever done that? Have you ever talked to a descendant of Slaves or read the writings of former slaves and their children?"

I say:

I don't believe that the slaves were literate, so they would not be able to relate their feelings at the time and place they occurred. Not that I'm denying that they sufferred. But are they the only one's in the world that sufferred? You know I had a great grand aunt that was taken into slavery in the Middle East.

It happened during a well known massacre, and the situation must have been so horrific that no member in my family ever spoke about it. I guess kind of like the holocaust. I had never met anyone willing to talk about what they went through.

Zenovia

My name is Dick; I'm a Catholic living in the middle of the USA.

Here's a quote I noted today:

"If Hamas is to recognize Israel, will Israel recognize Palestine? If Hamas is to end the armed resistance, will Israel end the belligerent military occupation?"

(Ghazi Hamad)

I would be intersted in comments on this quote.

Blessings.

Dick

I'm happy to read this because it shows a good strategy for Hamas and keeps the issue on point.

How will Israel respond now?

One Love.

bob r.

There were certainly literate people among the slaves in the USA - and there were laws forbidding the teaching of literacy to the slaves, with severe penalties. Nevertheless, some of the slaves have left us quite moving accounts of their experiences.

There was also a large federal project during the early presidency of Franklin Roosevelt to seek out former slaves who were still alive and collect their accounts, both oral and written. I read these accounts over forty years ago and I still recoil in horror just at the memory of reading them.

And, of course, there were cases of people born in slavery who after Emancipation achieved higher education - Paul Robeson's father was in this category.

As to whether things were better or worse in the Carribean or in the US/Confederate South, or on this plantation or that, it boils down to asking which one prefers, leprosy or cholera.

Incognitus

I'm not sure how I missed this great news!

http://www.pnn.ps/english/archive2006/feb/week1/070206/report1.htm

As if Hamas needed an issue.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article344233.ece

Dear Bob,

You keep posting sites. Now I 'dare' not go on, not only because I have not found anything in your postings that I could agree with, but because your tendencies and philosophies make me fearful that some of these sites might be observed by our nation's security system. They have to protect us against terrorists, you know!

Now if I was to link on one of your sites, a site that might not be totally 'kosher', the possibility exists that I myself could become suspect and being of a highly suspicious nature, I can only wonder if that might be the intent behind the links. After all, the more people that link on, the more difficult it becomes for our country to determine who is a terrorist and who is not. Why make their job more difficult.

Also, the hope of some liberals might be that by having more and more people linking on, people might start complaining about their rights being taken away. Either way, I personally refuse to link on.

But as I said, I am of a suspicious nature.

Zenovia

Dear Dick you quoted the following:

"If Hamas is to recognize Israel, will Israel recognize Palestine? If Hamas is to end the armed resistance, will Israel end the belligerent military occupation?"

(Ghazi Hamad)

I say:

I am sure Israel will rcognize Palestine, with certain conditions of course. Let's not forget we almost ended up in a nuclear disaster because Russia went to place missiles in Cuba. They were a threat to our security.

Certainly Israel would want to be assured that Palestine would not be in a position to be a threat to her. Maybe if all the mufti's were to condemn terrorism. Yeh right!

Zenovia

Dear Bob,

I must make a correction. It's not that I might not find anything in the links you posted that I might agree with...for I am sure I would agee with something. But when one tries to show only one side of an issue, then it becomes propaganda.

So now I have three reasons for not reading them. Oh boy am I suspicious! Well! At least I'm being honest.

Zenovia