www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Even theOrthodox Have Problems

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Don

This problem is ubiquitous in our society.

No kidding that it exists among the Orthodox.

How many police officers, social workers, teachers, daycare providers, secular youthgroup workers, etc. have been guilty of these crimes?

No one knows.

Indications are that these perverts find their niches in many areas of society. There are many devious ways that they seek access to youth, and infiltrating the RC priesthood is not the only one.

The "investigations" into this kind of abuse (whether internal or on the part of DA's) are tort-driven. Once the various dioceses started making payouts for damages inflicted by their miscreants, lawyers got on the scent. Once they got the first conviction in Boston, the avalanche began, and the whole "scandal". Unless and until the lawyers find similar wells of money elsewhere, this problem will not be exposed in the same public fashion in those other walks of society as it was in the RC priesthood, no matter how prevalent it is.

Thoughts?

LatinTrad

Dear Don,

Yes, even the Orthodox have problems and it would seem to me to be very inaccurate to suggest that the degree of the problem is as severe with the Orthodox as with the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know for sure, God Almighty knows. I do know the Orthodox Church takes a very strong position against such behavior.

However, I would tend to think that since celibacy is not imposed on Orthodox Priest's the issue may be much less severe. Having said that I think that the Roman Catholic Church should do whatever it can to prevent any further abuse, because no child should ever be subjected to any abuse especially by a Priest. Certainly, allowing a married Priesthood between a man and a woman would induce a change of some of the culture within the Roman Catholic Church. Homosexuals or petifiles are not comfortable around intolerant men who are married and would protect their genetic offspring as well as their flock from any potential assault. They are comfortable around each other especially when they can do whatever they want and receive protection at the cost of a child's innocence or the trust of Christians. They are not comfortable around authentic men who will stand up and remove them or turn them over to civil authorities for appropriate prosecution. The tend to look quite pathetic when caught, confronted and in a system that punishes such behavior. The same goes with drug dealers who prey on the youth of the world. Secular systems are usually not as moral as christological based understandings and practices. Very sadly, many things could be done in Rome to change or significantly reduce the behavior which is the responsibility of those in charge who could effectuate a change that could save thousands of children from such terrible lifelong trauma. If allowing a married Priesthood would reduce these God awful actions by 1/1000 of a percent or less then it is well worth the sacrifice of alleged celibacy. Most pathetically, I don't think it will happen, so what does that mean? Learned rationalization particularly from lawyers who can even make a crime that is the worst of the worst seem tolerable or not a real problem. The cries and suffering pain of victims is addressed and resolved by actions which would preclude any further offences to more innocent people, I mean children. Rhetoric that says much and does nothing or much worse rewards the behavior is worse than an insult, it a intentional violation of the victims correct concern and condition. Forgiveness is one thing and necessary, however stopping the abuse is just as necessary. But in the end, we all have to answer for our actions and inactions.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Hi,

This is preposterous!

Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church doesn't take a very string position against it?

The fact that there were several bishops in the U.S. failing to implement such position doesn't mean the Catholic Church condones such behavior.

And by the way, I wouldn't be so sure about your first statement. I recall reading somewhere (unfortunately I do not have the source right now), that proportionally, the problem of child abuse among Catholic Clergy was not higher than most other religious organizations, and significantly lower than other occupations with frequent contact with children (such as teachers, health care providers, trainers, etc.).

That is because you assume that an important drive for a pedophile priest would be his condition of not being married.

I am not so sure about this because of two big reasons:

1. I do not think that the pedophile abuses children only to satisfy a sexual drive, or at least, not *the same* sexual drive that is satisfied during sexual intercourse with a spouse. There may be other motivations involved.

2. The number of married pedophile is statistical proof that marriage is not a "vaccine" against the problem (and further proof that the perpetrator is looking for something else, other than sex, which his/her spouse could have "provided").

I think that as an Orthodox faithful, instead of proclaiming the self-righteousness of your Church, you should take a closer look and take concrete actions now to ascertain that your Church is not suffering from the problem, or if it is, to correct it as swiftly as possible.

Shalom,
Memo.

For years the Protestant sectarians have had these problems: scandalous frauds, incest, cheating, pedophilia, sexual abuse.

But of course, the medias never talk about a "Protestantism Crisis" as they do about the Roman Catholic Church. If it's about a Catholic or Orthodox priest it's a big issue, if it's about a Mormon sectarian or anything like that, doesn't matter.

Dear Memo,

I think that under the current situation a more responsible position would be to be as firm as possible and remove those who perpetrated or participated or allowed the participation of such behavior unintentionally or intentionally to the best of the Roman Catholic Churches ability. Whether it was done through a cover up, negligence, misplaced mercy or whatever, every possible remedy should be pursued because it is much to seriously detrimental to the victims and the Roman Catholic Churches standing in worldwide society.

So I'm sorry for perhaps being naive, but when I read the THIS IS DISFGRACEFUL thread and part of which is below I found myself thinking that this is really an unbelievable action considering all that has transpired especially recently. The appointment of Cardinal Bernard F. Law as head of a basilica by the Pope or his advisors is absurd from my perspective. It's seems to be a very insensitive
and may actually cause more sincere pain to the victims or the parents of the younger victims that have suffered way too much already. It is obviously detrimental to the Catholic Church's moral authority from my perspective anyway. Perhaps, I'm too simple minded and don't see the logic of the bigger picture. Sometimes there is more compassion rendered on a larger scale for many people through the implementation a strong and firm reprimand. Perhaps exhile to a one man monastery would have went over better for some.


VATICAN CITY � Pope John Paul II (search) on Thursday gave Cardinal Bernard F. Law (search) an official position in Rome, naming the former Boston archbishop who resigned in the sex abuse scandal as head of a basilica.

I don't know how anyone one can permit themselves to be a pedophile but I can tell you that it is a manifestation of evil inflicted upon the innocent because it destroys innocence and tarnishes the victims for life. But under the circumstances why not address the issue by allowing a married Priesthood for many Roman Catholics have called for this and the psycho logical position you and they have articulated is being accepted at this time. However a married Priesthood could be an easily developed idea that may reduce the very serious problem. Certainly the faithful might then find some comfort in that knowledge and be able to say at least the Roman Catholic Church is trying everything they can to stop such behavior. Whether it would or not is still a matter of free will. But we can be confident that since a married Priesthood is an Orthodox practice it is theologically correct. So why not embrace it?

The Priesthood is not just another occupation I'm quite sure. It is a wrong reduction to equate it with teachers, health care providers, trainers, etc. This sort of notion is a typical minimization of a less understanding generation. Saint John Chrysostom has written much on the Priesthood. When he was exhiled by the east the Pope of Rome at the time took the matter so seriously he interrupted communion with Constantinople. Be at peace with me and know that I don't agree with the papacy of today and you may so we will often differ in our opinions. There is no need to attack the Orthodox Church when you think that I'm attacking the Roman Catholic Church for this was not what I had expected and I would have said nothing had I thought that my words would bring about your reaction.

The Orthodox Church is not in fact suffering from such a problem I understand how these very few matters have been addressed in the past within. I will flat out say it usually does not happen with a married Priest. Suffice it to say step one is usually defrocking.

No need to fight Memo or indicate my proclamation of self-righteousness of the Orthodox Church, I'm aware of my opinions and the basis for the formation of those opinions. God help all of us.

By the way I assume by your names you and Mexican my be of Spanish decent. I have just heard the Orthodox divine liturgy John Chrysostom in Spanish for the first time, it is very beautiful if you would like a copy on tape send me a private email and I would be happy to send it to anyone on this forum. Don't worry about the cost the postage is not to much. As you know many of the Spanish people have a beautiful faith and devotion in particular to the Theotokas. Many Spanish men are wonderful Christians and are family oriented which has caused them to be brave in battle throughout history. There is no doubt in my mind that you are and would stand up both for your faith and your heritage for they are intertwined. It is good to know that we both share these understandings. You could even tell me to shut my big mouth up and I would understand it to really convey peace.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


Here is a little information from an Encyclopedia.

(krs�stm, krss��) (KEY) [Gr.,=golden-mouth], c.347�407, Doctor of the Church, one of the greatest of the Greek Fathers. He was born in Antioch and studied Greek classics there. As a young man he became an anchorite monk (374), a deacon (c.381) and a priest (386). Under Flavian of Antioch he preached brilliantly in the cathedral for 12 years, winning wide recognition. In 398 he was suddenly made patriarch of Constantinople, where he soon gained the admiration of the people by his eloquence, his ascetic life, and his charity. His attempts to reform the clergy, however, alienated many monks and priests, and the court of the Roman emperor of the East came to resent his denunciation of their ways. He lost favor when he demanded mercy for the dishonored Eutropius and when he refused to condemn without a hearing certain monks accused of heresy. Empress Eudoxia and Theophilus, bishop of Alexandria, succeeded in having St. John condemned (403) by an illegal synod on false charges. The indignation of the people was reinforced by an opportune earthquake, and the superstitious Eudoxia had St. John recalled. He continued to attack the immorality of the court, and Emperor Arcadius exiled him to Cucusus in Armenia. There he continued to exert influence through his letters, and Arcadius moved him to a more isolated spot on the Black Sea. St. John, already ill, died from the rigors of the journey. Although not a formal polemicist, John Chrysostom influenced Christian thought notably. He wrote brilliant homilies, interpreting the Bible literally and historically rather than allegorically. His treatise on the priesthood (381) has always been popular. His sermons and writings, remarkable for their purity of Greek style, afford an invaluable picture of 4th-century life. His influence was already great in his own day, and the pope withdrew (406�16) from communion with Constantinople because of his banishment. In 438, St. John�s body was returned to Constantinople, and Emperor Theodosius II did penance for his parents� offenses.

It is disgraceful to mention the fact that abuse happens in many areas? It is ok for you to mention abuse-scandal questions within Catholicism, but it is not proper to reflect on the further ramifications of abuse, esp those within the Orthodox world?

I think it is quite clear, this abuse scandal transcends churches, and until we realize this, it will not be dealt with properly. It has become an issue, not of concern for abuse, but as a means of attacking the Catholic faith.

I think we can also see another motive behind scandals, and one which is wisely stated by the following quote:

"Our love may be chilled and our will eroded by the spectacle of the shortcomings, folly, and even sins of the Church and its ministers, but I do not think that one who has once had faith goes back over the line for these reasons (least of all anyone with any historical knowledge). 'Scandal' at most is an occasion of temptation-- as indecedeny is to lust, which it does not make but arouses. It is convenient because it tends to turn our eyes away from ourselves and our faults to find a scape-goat. " (J R. R. Tolkien, Letter 250).

Now, a quick question, did you even read through the website? It discusses how the Orthodox should not think "we are so much better." Articles published in Orthodox journals are reprinted there -- these are not people hating the Orthodox Church, but in love with the faith wanting to nonetheless stop the abuses.

You will read of abusers, known to be abusers, transfered, awarded honors (Archimandrite), et. al. Before commenting and saying "look what happened to Law" (btw, St John Chrysostom was accused of "abuse" and for being a bad steward/bishop too.. it is a very common charge to bishops by those who hate them), read what happens within the Orthodox world.

Folks:

There is more going on then what you have really heard about: http://www.rcf.org

Scott

Yes, occasionaly, even Jewish rabbis. But why haven't nuns, religious brothers, catechists, youth counselors, et al have been accussed of pedophilia????

A few women's orders have been accused of physically and emotionally abusing children, but it is extremely rare for a woman to sexually abuse a child.

Follow the money.

Dioceses are centralized, legal entities having insurance policies. Would any lawyer waste his/her time pursuing Brother ----, who may be penniless?

I once worked for Waste Management, Inc. years ago and they were always bein sued for methane gas blowing off from their landfills. (we'll forget for a moment that many who moved next to these landfills knew about it, but moved there anyway). Even though one landfill I used to visit on my route audits was frequented more by local mom-and-pop garbage companies (read: poor folks), the neighbors only went after big ol' Waste Management (read: big corporation; lots of money; big and easy target).

The Catholic Church is centrally organized. Many Bible Churches, which may be independent as well as non-congregational, are small targets. So what if some non-Catholic church groups have married clergy who may have MORE charges of sexual misconduct than Catholic dioceses?

Follow the money.

Sure, we'd like to think that we are good folks who like to bring sexual perverts to justice, but the cause is helped when there are large money cauffers, right?

Joe

Matthew,

So men who become priests are no longer human? The same emotions, thoughts, and moods that other males have just disappear when they are ordained? If that was they case, then how do you explain the thousands of priests who left the ministry to get married? Priests, like teachers and healthcare providers have to work with other people. Their ministry or "job" may be different, but they are still working with the SAME folks that teachers and healthcare providers work with. I remember once a seminarian saying that he wouldn't mind being a priest if he didn't have to work with people. How nice.

Joe

Actually, Brothers have been accused frequently. In USA, Canada, Australia and Ireland the Christian Brothers (both groups) have paid millions and several individuals sent to prison. Most of the abuse took place in their orphanages or boarding schools. The one who abused me was a brother who founded a community of brothers under diocesan jurisdiction. Nuns have mostly been acused of other sorts or abuse, rather than sexual, although there has been some of that as well. I agree with Joe, usually they go where the money is, and it is easier to get out of the Catholic dioceses or the larger religious orders. But that doesn't mean the abuse isn't there. Here in Kansas I know of at least 3 Protestant ministers who have been convicted of sexual abuse of minors, both boys and girls. Very little notice was given to these cases in the press, however when the local Archiocesan vocations director admitted having had relations with teenage boys, it was all over the place for weeks. Abuse is common among all religious groups, but the RCC is the largest church in the country and will therefore have larger numbers of perps. Marriage doesn't seem to have much to do with it. The local ministers who were caught were all married men. If you follow the link posted about to the Orthodox site and read about some of the problem clergy listed there, about half were married. It is going to happen, the important thing is what processes are in place to lessen the chances of it happening and dealing with the fall-out after these things happen. The latter part is especially where the Churches seem to let us down. There is so little official support for those who have been abused. I'm lucky, the diocese where I was abused is paying for my therapy at this time. However, not all dioceses will do even that much without a big legal fight. And the response from Rome has been even worse! We are considered trouble makers at the best and out to destroy the Church at worst. One survivor I came across said something that I find very interesting. Never, in any response from local bishops or Rome concerning this issue mentions God or what Jesus would do. And if you look at any official statements, you will find this usually true. It is very sad.

Don

Oh Henry,

Yes, I read a bid through the website and quickly disregarded what I was reading because I'm not ignorant of authors motivation as a board member of Orthodox Christian Laity which is an organization that has a vast agenda including to exert influence and change the charter of the Greek Orthodox Church in America to the dismay of Constantinople and others. If my memory serves me correctly, they are suing or have sued the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese to the utter dismay of the GOA which believes that such matters do not belong in civil courts. I agree. Your quote: " these are not people hating the Orthodox Church, but in love with the faith wanting to nonetheless stop the abuses." whether they hate the Orthodox Church or not I do not know, I do know they are very unhappy with Constantinople and the GOA and the way it is chartered today.

I have known many of the Bishops mentioned and Metropolitan Isaiah quite well since my youth, my Father an Orthodox Priest and he had been very good friends when he was the chancellor in the Chicago Archdiocese. Metropolitan Isaiah is very much loved by many Greek Orthodox Priest's for he is of a just and practical disposition. You are not familiar with the details regarding the accusations against Fr. Barrow or how the matter is being investigated. So when I read an article that is completely inconsistent with my knowledge of the matter and the character Metropolitan Isaiah and the Bishops mentioned it is easy for me to dismiss. For there is a difference between truth and untruth and discerning the ability to discern the difference as well as indicated by your knowledge and conclusions rendered relative to the subject matter. As far as the other accusations I don't know the details but I can say the Orthodox Hierarchy that I know would be quite concerned if anything of that nature occurred and would handle the matter to the best of their ability. I am not naive in my conclusion. My Father and Metropolitan Isaiah had a cup of coffee one day many years ago and started the OCCA which is group of Orthodox Priest's who discuss matters of importance for all Orthodox Priests and Christians. We used to have OCCA picnics at our Church. All the clergy from various Orthodox Churches and their families would gather for a wonderful day filled with food ands discussions. Priest kids would play with other Priest's kids and the Pani's Matushka's and Presbytera's (Priests wives) would converse as well. These Priest wives telephone each other and are privy to much information in many situations. Armed with Ya Ya's and Babushka's by their sides they are not tolerant of child abuse or Priest abuse and know who the troublemakers are and the bishops are aware of this. I was a young man and would often attend. I can tell they are normal. I have known many Orthodox Priest's and I will say in all sincerity I have not heard of child abuse by any that I have known. I have seen some who have been thrown out of a seminary or monastery. In the Orthodox Church there really is a strong opposition to such behavior. I just asked a Priest wife about the subject matter. She has just told me that she is 77 years old and has probably known several hundred married Orthodox Priests. She has told me that she is not aware of any that are pedophiles. I realize that her conclusion is based on her knowledge and experience as a Priest wife. Joe has asked: "So men who become priests are no longer human?" Yes they are human but what they do as Priest's is in a completely different realm relative to teachers and healthcare people. Contrary to Joe's limited understanding and conclusion they are not like other folk even though they too work with folk. I remember a time when a member of our Parish called my father who after the call was not around for about a week. For my own protection I was not aware of all of the details of his departure other than he is helping a family out. Well there was a little girl who had been subjected to demonic activities and no one among the heterodox or scientific community could help. The physiatrists and others couldn't handle the severe situation and left in a distressed state. My Father dug in, stayed with the family and thought he might get killed, but had the knowledge and conviction that all things are subject to God's will and did what other folk could not do as Priests do when they celebrate the Divine Liturgy and hear confessions etc. Henry, I know what happens within the Orthodox world for I grew up in it. I don't agree with your comments or conclusions.

Joe, I remember once a Priest telling me after the walls had been soaked with Holy Water and many prayers said that he wasn't afraid for himself even when the hair on his head was standing up, he was afraid for the child and the family. The girl is grown and fine now and I suppose she may have a great respect for the Holy Priesthood. Seminarian's are learning to be Priest's and in their youth may say things from that perspective which can change with time.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin