www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Hitler and Stalin live in Iran

Looks like another Hitler. Not surprising. Many Arab nations were strongly influenced by Nazism and Communism. Is it surprising that they are anti-Semitic?

"This is an English version of an essay first published in Slovak.
On December 14, 2005, Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad delivered a televised speech in which he called the Nazi murder of six million Jews a fabrication. "They have created a myth in the name of the Holocaust and consider it above God, religion, and the prophets. If someone were to deny the existence of God... they would not bother him. However, if someone were to deny the myth of the Jews' massacre, all the Zionist mouthpieces and the governments subservient to the Zionists tear their larynxes and scream against the person as much as they can." In October 2005, he presided at a "World Without Zionism" conference. Banners called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." The use of English to display the slogans belied the explanation that such rhetoric was meant for internal consumption only...."

Complete article:

http://www.meforum.org/article/885

CDL

"Looks like another Hitler. Not surprising. Many Arab nations were strongly influenced by Nazism and Communism. Is it surprising that they are anti-Semitic?"

Dan,

For the record I categorically reject everything that fellow said.

However, I feel I must respond to your post as I disagree with your sensationalistic style and several of your points:

1) Arabs are Semites, so how can they be anti-Semitic? Anti-Jewish, sure, but not Anti-Semitic. And before someone quotes Webster's dictionary in an attempt to state that Anti-Semitic means Anti-Jewish in modern English, I reject that definition as prejudiced and believe that our language should be updated (as it often is) to be more precise.

2) Iranians are not even Arabs anyway, but are "white people" being Aryans (Iran = Aryan).

Just some thoughts.

Anastasios

Iran was infected by Nazi and Communist influence as well. Beyond that there seems not to be much relevance to your objection.

Read: Stephen Schwartz, "The Two Faces of Islam" to gain an understanding of the anti-Jewish nature of much of Islam in the area.

CDL

BTW With your "Aryan" observation are you suggesting that Hitler was right? I wonder why India doesn't behave toward the Jews like this Iranian leader since many Hindus are Aryans?

I do not support those who say that "there was no holoccaust" but I believe that the world must not condemn those who have a different opinion based in proofs and facts, with serious investigation.

It's absurd that after so many years the Communist history continues to be enforced as obligatiory, telling us that WWII only saw the extermination of Jews by the Axis while the allies were pure hearted and good.

What kind of freedom did Stalin give to the peoples that were opressed by the Soviet dictatorship? Millions of Ukrainians perished of hunger, thousands of Russians were murdered in concentration camps. The Japanese also had their Holocaust courtesy of the allies.

It's perfectly acceptable today to admire Joseph Stalin, there are even political parties in the world who actively advocate his actions but it's not possible to Mosley or Maurras or you can be the victim of an agression.

The Holocaust is an excuse to allow all kind of abuses in the middle-east, but the Armenians, the Assyrians and the Kurds are denied the right of self-determination and freedom.

Carson makes a number of valid points.

To add to this, progressive forces in both Iran and Palestine were sharply critical of the anti-semitic remarks and the attempts by the Iranian regime to divert attention from internal problems.

No serious investigation can support the revisionist theories that the Holocaust did not happen. To pose the question is, in the first place, absurd--and I think that I am being charitable here in saying "absurd."

Democracy is, at its core, pure hearted and good. The countless Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish and other martyrs in the Nazi death camps testify to this. Among them are many of our saints and holy people. A visit to what is left of Jasenovac or to the Orthodox monastery in the Beograd suburbs will melt hearts and destroy pride.

It is not that anyone is saying or enforcing an idea that Stalin gave anyone their freedom. The situation is more complex than that. But the world should not have had to make the false choice between Hitler and Stalin and people of conscience should not have had to choose those sides and surrender their own religion, morality and ethics in doing so. The best we can do now is pray and work to make sure that new Hitlers do not arise. Carson has done well by raising the issue.

The Japanese did indeed also carry out genocide and paid for it with untold numbers of innocent lives. Again, terrible choices were made and we have much work to do in overcoming the legacy of the last world war. Its a good thing to join with your local peace movement every August when the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are prayerfully remembered.


Honoring Mosley & Co. probably should be a crime.

Armenians have a country and a spectacularly corrupt government; not much problem with self-determination there. Assyrians are busy winning their self-determination and fighting the Kurds to do so. Eventually the Armenians, Kurds and Assyrians will butt head-on against one another with their conflicting claims. Then what?

But let's return to Carson's original story and its reprecussions. One of the region's strongest Christian voices for peace, justice, non-violence and reconciliation was jailed by the Israelis yesterday. Sami Awad, a friend of mine, is standing for election to the Palestinian legislative assembly as a non-violent Christian activist. He was arrested and beaten yesterday by Israeli forces. If you want justice in Palestine, work equally hard against fanaticism and violence on all sides. Please ask the State Department (202-647-4000) to intervene. Mr. Awad has joint US-Palestinian citizenship and heads the Holy Land Trust organization.

bob r.

Bob,

Thank you for this information. I trust that many will follow your suggestion. The Israeli government is often its own worst enemy. Christians suffer as they are caught between Islam and Judaism. I wish it weren't so.

"But let's return to Carson's original story and its reprecussions. One of the region's strongest Christian voices for peace, justice, non-violence and reconciliation was jailed by the Israelis yesterday. Sami Awad, a friend of mine, is standing for election to the Palestinian legislative assembly as a non-violent Christian activist. He was arrested and beaten yesterday by Israeli forces. If you want justice in Palestine, work equally hard against fanaticism and violence on all sides. Please ask the State Department (202-647-4000) to intervene. Mr. Awad has joint US-Palestinian citizenship and heads the Holy Land Trust organization."

?????

How in the world do you arrive at such resonsings? My point was you called Iranians Arabs but they are not Arabs, that's all. I can't believe you suggested I think Hitler is right. That's messed up.

Anastasios

Anastasios,

Thank you for the clarification. You are of course correct, but I was a bit surprised that you thought I didn't know that Persia was not Arab. Sorry for reacting so strongly.

CDL

I have to take issue with this. Democracy is rule by the people. People can be good or bad, usually left without guidance by the Lord and his Church (Monarchy) people will sink to the lowest common denominator: America today.

Aristotle taught that there were 6 types of government, from best to worst: Monarchy, Aristocracy, Polity, Democracy, Oligarchy, Tyranny.
I suspect you are referring to democracy when you probably mean polity. Polity is everyone working together for the common good. Democracy, as Thomas Jefferson put it, is 51% of the people subjugating 100% of the people. Democracy is only as good as the people in the state. Polity is the state working for a greater good; not for the people, which is what democracy is.

By the way, the best form of govenment is a monarchy or kingdom. Who is the King? Who is the Pantokrator?
I don't know if Divine Right of Kings is good or not, but even the French during the Revolution wanted a return to the Reign of St. Louis IX. I wonder who wouldn't want to live under St. Stephen of Hungary or St. Edward the Confessor. I don't know much about St. Volodymyr or St. Olha. What other Eastern Monarchs are there who are saints and under whose reign we would have been blessed to be under?

PS I have read that both of the old Emperors abdicated due to that they only wanted the best for their people. Both are Blesseds of their respective Churches. The Austrian Emperor in the Western Church, and the Russian Imperial Family in the Russian Church.

Oh yeah... Hitler was elected by the people.

Dr. Eric,

I agree with you. A strong case can and has been made for the superiority of monarchy even in Muslim states. (See Schwartz, The Two Faces of Islam and Abu El Fadl Khaled, Islam and the Challenge of Democracy). The confusion comes when we try to help people understand the difference between Monarchy and Tyranny. Many don't see the difference.

CDL

We don't see the difference between monarchies and tyranny because there isn't one.

Monarchies perhaps made sense when production and distribution were undeveloped and localized, before commodity production developed and class and national relations were transformed. To take a step backwards to those kind of societies would mean losing modern science, development and national relationships. Since most people are unwilling to do that--and I think this really is the Holy Spirit at work--it would indeed require tyranny and repression.

Much of the difficulty in Muslim countriues today stems exactly from the conflict between the classes around and supporting the monarchies and developing national or internationalist capitalist classes. Let's not use them as a model. And the monarchies everywhere else are either corrupt or are damaged goods (having sold their countries out to the fascists) or are irrelevent to anything and a tremendous drain on national resources.

Democracy is indeed good and pure at its roots because it comes to us from the synergy of the Holy Trinity.

bob r.

CIX!

Many of us see the difference quite cleary - possibly because we haven't been infected by silly liberal prejudice against the institution of monarchy. Perhaps you might consider the Monarchy of God the Father to be Tyranny too.

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. Perhaps you might also consider socialist and marxist societies to be the work of the Holy Spirit.

Crude, gross and unfair generalisation. A monarchy costs far less than the swollen self-important administrations of the present day so-called democracies.

I can give two examples of well-loved and functioning monarchies in countries that work perfectly well: Thailand and Japan.

There are bad monarchs and good monarchs, but it is unfair to condemn the institution - which comes to us from God.

This is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Do the words 'O Heavenly King' ring a bell? God anointed Kings and Emperors - never democracies.

Democracy always becomes Ochlocracy.

To pretend that Democracy comes from the Trinity is either gross ignorance and fantasy at best, or wilful misrepresentation and and devilish obfuscation at worst.

There is no lack of sainted monarchs - I have yet to see a single holy leader of a democracy.

All ye Holy Emperors and Empresses, Kings and Queens of Christendom - pray to God for us!

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc8t.htm

http://www.serfes.org/royal/newmiracle.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_royal_saints_and_martyrs

I would much rather live under the rule of these persons than under many of the democratically elected presidents, prime ministers, and chancellors that have been around in the last 300 years.

Dear Edward Yong and Dr Eric,

Your posts represent the most blatant defense of monarchy I have ever seen on this democratic Forum!

Keep up the great work!

Alex
past president
Monarchist League of Canada
Toronto Branch