www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islamophobia

many good point here. I agree that we should be prudent in our apporach to other religions.

One statement in this thread that is understood incorrectly is that Islam holds the same faith as Christians.

It is clear that the teaching of Vatican II say that Islam
"claims to hold the faith of Abraham."

They claim to hold the same faith, that does not mean they do.

NOSTRA AETATE [vatican.va]

Paragraph three recognizes that Islam links itself to Abraham.

Also, CCC 841 quotes Lumen Gentium 16. That is where Vatican II uses the phrase "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God"

This is not the same as saying that they hold the faith of Abraham and that they worship the same God as Christians.

I repeat once again...it's a religion founded by Muhummad...a delusional crazy guy who raped, committed incest, killed, committed genocide, was a terrorist and simply a con-artist scammer (and many more)...who studied Abraham.

That's the "link" to Abraham..is the fact he studied it...but like someone here just said that doesn't mean the faith is based on that.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

BY THE WAY EVERYONE:

Remember there were some posts about the late John Paul II kissing the Koran.

And I THOUGHT everyone was making a big deal out of nothing....and that I thought he was kissing it to show respect to people of Islam and or out of good gesture.

Every time somebody said something about the Pope kissing the Koran...I'm like.."Oh come on! Not again!"

And NOW...NOW...I am like...."WOW! I was wrong! It is a HUGE DEAL!"

In the last few months...I've been reading a lot into subject about the Koran...and I'm going to go and look for one in the City Library if they have one there.

So..now...I WONDER WHY John Paul II kissed the Koran...WOW indeed!!!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

I own a Qu'ran.

I do not intentional treat it with disrespect however, I don't treat it with any particular reverence other than that.

I own several. They make wonderful paperweights and doorstops.

Is it too much to ask on a forum linked to a Catholic entity [the Byzantine Catholic Church] that we show some respect for other religions?
And Dundas: In fact the Old Testament is full of commands to slaughter those who do not worship God. The Koran, like the OT, is a mix of pretty primitive and vengeful ideas and some sublime ones, like the idea that Christians and Muslims are "People of the Book" and are to be granted religious freedom, as indeed they were under many Muslim rulers.
And how do you say you don't dissent from Catholic teaching? In the very next sentence after that disclaimer you do so.
If you read anti-Islamic polemics you will get a very slanted idea, sort of like reading fundamentalist Protestants on the Catholic Church. The world is full of ignorant "experts" on other religions.
Thank God internet amateur pundits don't reflect the attitudes of the Teaching Church!
-Daniel

Daniel,

I can't for the life of me understand what you are asking. If we promise not to treat Muslims as Muslims have treated us will that make you feel better? If we promise to be respectful to Muslims and take their teachings as their teachings sincerely held by them, will that convince we that we are not afraid of Islam as if we fear it more than we do God Himself? If we agree that the Qur'an does indeed speak of Abraham and his God will that calm your agitation?

You admit that they are in error. So do most people on this board. I've never known who wants to kill a Muslim or who wishes to destroy a Mosque. I suppose for those who Churches have been destroyed by Muslim terrorists with the tacit approval of their religious leaders I imagine the temptation has come to them to retaliate. But seriously, the list of quotes from the Qur'an that demonstrate that Christians and Jews are considered to be by definition corrupt and untrustworthy aren't interpretations of the Qur'an. They are quotations from the Qur'an. Do you really know what a Dhimmi is and how most are treated? Do you really?

Your analogy with a Calvinist is appropos to some degree. We did fight a war with some of their European princes back in the day. But to say that the analogy goes much further really stretches credulity.

I will happily debate a Calvinist and have. I've happily debated Muslims. Some have no trouble with that. Others treat me as a blasphemer. At least the Calvinist does not proclaim that Christ is not God.

In any event I doubt very much that you treat Muslims or their religion any differently than the rest of us.

So, I'm left rather confused at your point. If you are trying to claim that most of us are heretics for rejecting the claims of Islam...well...you are wrong.

CDL

No, only that we ought at least acknowledge with the Church that they worship the One God, that they are not all terrorists and that we ought to refrain from the sort of insults and offensive language that has been seen aplenty on this thread: refusing to capitalize terms that in standard English usage are capitalized as proper names, saying that one uses the Qur'an as a doorstop [which is roughly equivalent to saying one uses the Eucharist as kitty litter], calling them demonic and so on and so on.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Islam:

841. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge at the last day. [emphasis added].

That seems pretty clear to me.

There is a fundamental respect that one should manifest to other religions, especially those that the Church teaches worship the One God.
I have consistently criticized Mormonism in these discussions, holding it up as an example of a religion that doesn't worship the same God that we do [though it uses the same terms, redefined]. Yet when some smart aleck lamely punned that it was the "Moron faith" I chastized them for their disrespect.
It is really a matter of fundamental decency and civility. And for Catholics, it is a matter of thinking with the Church.
Does that clarify things?
-Daniel

Daniel,

I thought that's what you meant. However, my disagreement with this thread is not your position but the fact that a whole thread was taken to make it. It's like taking offense at someone who says that "this sho is brown" because you believe it is actually "dark brown".

There are too many things in the world that we can take offense over to make this something of importance.

While Muslims slaughter Christians and Jews all over the world I do know that their martyrdom serves the will of God for the world. Yet, I find their slaughter more offensive by far, than someone pointing out that the Qur'an contains some very nasty teachings about us. I find the slaughter of Christians and Jews more offensive than the claim that Muhamad was a bit insane or evil. He may well have been both.

Dan L

This is an amazing discussion! Doesn't it seem that views on Islam are directly corelated to the persons ethnic origin and exposure to Islam?

What can we make of this?

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter4.html

Is this all made up?

The author makes much use of Tabari's texts. The following link describes who Tabari is:

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/myletfor95.html

Muslims sell his books:

http://onlineislamicstore.com/tabari.html

Joe

Daniel,

So let me ask this question - do we or do we not have an OBLIGATION to evangelize those of the Muslim faith? Are they not in error on many (not all) matters of religious belief? Do they not also preach a religion whose main text advocates for the death and destruction of non-believers as part of a theological principle of jihad? (Rather than a command for a specific time period in salvation history, as exemplified in the OT passages you mention. BTW, the inerrancy and inspiration of Sacred Scripture is also a doctrine of the faith. Do you suspend that belief because the passages you find so troubling differ from your personal views?)

Let's be clear. As Catholic Christians we can be respectful of others who do not share our religious beliefs. No doubt, there are many devout Muslims who do share a belief in the same God that we do. Again, we are united with them in this belief (or they are united with us, rather) in so far as they affirm faith in the one God who created the world. In terms of what they deny (incarnation, Holy Trinity) they worship a different god. The goal, like Paul's preaching, is to help them see that the One God they seek to serve is in fact God of the Christians - the Holy Trinity and God's eternal Son made flesh.

Gordo

So what are you saying? That Pope John Paul II was secretly a Muslim?

Wow indeed. :rolleyes:

Okay...if the Old Testament have a G-d that says that killing those who don't believe in G-d are justified.

But it doesn't go on and on and on and on about non-believers.

The Koran goes on and on and on and goes in wicked details about how evil Christianity and Judiasm really are.

The Koran constantly praises those who kill to wipe out Christianity and Judaism.

No where in the Old Testament that praises those who kill and no where there that says that Judiasm will be rewarded by G-d to kill.

The Old Testament says:

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL!

THOU SHALT NOT COMMITT ADULTURY!

THOU SHALT NOT LIE!

ETC.

That's TEN COMMANDMENTS.

We cannot break any of these Commandments in the name of G-d!!!

But yet...the Koran DOES!

Jesus Himself says that those who contradict the teachings of the Scriptures is against G-d and is of the Evil One.

So...I firmly believe that Muhammand was posessed by the Evil One in order to perpetuate evil deeds around.

Muhammand KILLED...RAPED...COMMITTED GENOCIDE...INCEST...STOLE...LIED...ETC. And you guys want me to respect a Religion founded by SUCH MAN LIKE THIS???

LOOK AT HISTORY!

The Arabian countries were find until Muhammad took over and started all of these killings.

Syria was one of the largest Christian communities at the time...and if it was NOT for Islam killing off of these Christians there...then the largest Church in the world today would be Syrian Christians....not Roman Catholics.

It will take up few weeks to read out the whole history on what happened since Islam was founded. Maybe months.

I have never heard of such "Sacred Book" promoting and perpetuating so much hate as the Koran does.

And because of that...there's no way that I'm not gonna respect Islam since they do NOT respect us at all. They want US DEAD!

Us Christians and Jews today...do not want to kill each other...but the Moslems do.

In matter of fact, few of my friends overheard Moslems talking at Lebanese restuarant here in town...recently...stating how much they HATE HATE Jews and Christians.

WOW! So, I see that Islam is a religion of HATE EVERYWHERE.

If you claim that many Christians and Jews did many evil things...well that may be true. It seems more apparent that it's regional thing.

But Islam have the INTERNATIONAL teaching on HATE and PREJUDICES. IT's EVERYWHERE.

I used to work with a Moslem years ago. He was always spewing hate against the Christians and women. He has taken hostage of our workplace (not like with machine guns..but with threats to sue if he gets fired for making remarks about his beliefs). He finally got fired when the boss had the guts to fire him.

There's nothing out of that man but HATE HATE HATE and I've seen it all with my own eyes. There was another Moslem guy...who was trying to convert Christians into Islam...and my friend over heard him whisperhing.."These Christians are going to be damned." (the guy didn't know that my friend was standing nearby and didn't know that my friend heard it).

I can go on and on and on all day long about this. I've SEEN PLENTY to attest to what I'm saying here.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine