www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islamophobia

But all that still doesn't explain why you said "WOW!" to the idea of John Paul kissing the Koran. Do you think the Pope knew all these horrible things, and kissed it anyway, because he approved of the message? That seems to be the ultimate implication of the "John Paul Kissed The Koran!!" story.

I said WOW mainly because he may not have known of the contents of the Koran.

That's a proof that many are in the dark of the contents of the true teachings of Islam based on Koran. Even many Moslems are in the dark about it. It's still the FUNDAMENTAL FAITH of the Islam based on Koran and many teachings of Muhammad.

Just like many Christians were in the dark about many things that already was a teaching of the Church such as the Eucharist, Pope, Sacraments, etc. especially during the dark ages of persecutions where many teachings were supressed for a while.

If the pope really did know the true contents of the Koran, then G-d have mercy!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Being a scholar, I'm sure the Pope had a pretty good idea of the contents of the Koran.

So once again - assuming the Pope knew the contents of the Koran, and kissed it out of courtesy when it was given to him as a gift - does that mean he was secretly a Muslim and agreed with the contents?

Well then, if you suppose the Pope knew the contents but kissed the book anyway...well..then I think it's too bad.

I think, in my opinion, that the Pope should have NEVER done that. It has caused a lot of uproar for few years since.

But don't bet your life over the Pope's doings. You make it seem like what the Pope is doing is PERFECT, INFALLIABLE, and G-d-BINDING.

The Pope is NOT G-d. He is NOT the Savior. He is NOT the Messiah.

So, don't take what the Pope is doing (even if it's wrong) and make it okay/acceptable.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

I must say that, scratching beneath the macro level surface, I suppose I must myself somewhat dissent from you refer to as a "teaching."

Islam is clearly inspired by the same God as Judiasm and Christianity, since Mohammed clearly studied those religions -- but much of what Muslims ascribe to God as His Word is very, very different from what Jews and Christians believe. Now, if your or I say we worship the God of Abraham but then ascribe words directly to Him that are radically different from the Judeo-Christian tradition, can we honestly say that we worhip the same, exact God that Jews and Christians worship? I don't think so. But are we all seeking to worship the same, exact God on a macro level? I tend to think so and I tend to think that is probably more on target with what the church is getting at.

If one is to say that God as Muslims understand Him is that same, exact God we worship, then, no, I don't think that it is intellectually honest when you get below the macro level of analysis and get into the micro level of detail. Nevertheless, I will not deny the many kind, charitable and moral Muslims I have met in my lifetime and I will not deny that I learned a lot from them. I think they are *seeking* the same God we are and really, I think that is where the Christians ought to focus. We are supposed to be a light to all the nations, not just the people who think like us. Really, isn't that the true spirit of the "teaching?" In the imitation of Our Lord, are we not to love our neighbor as ourself?

So...if Islam is INSPIRED by the same G-d of Jews and Christians...so does that mean Jews and Christians are ALL going to BURN and be DAMNED in hell for eternity because we're not Moslems?

That is exactly what Islam teaches, mainly based on the Koran (which you claim to be INSPIRED by the same G-d of Jews and Christians).

I guess we all are going to Hell, won't we?

Now...according to few of my Jewish friends who converted to Byzantine Catholicism...they said that Christianity is an elevated form of Judaism. That G-d elevated Judiasm through Christianity. Because Christianity is a fulfilment of all good things in the Old Testament.

Even Christ said that the Word of G-d is being fulfilled. That's when the Jews thought He was blasmphemied against the Word of G-d.

There is NO where in Islam that is tightly connected or rooted to the customs/traditions of Judiasm and Christianity.

The Divine Liturgy is truly Jewish-rooted. Every aspect of Christian faith is Jewish rooted.

So, think about this once again for a moment...does the SAME G-d of Jews and Christians command the Moslems to kill at will while the G-d of Christians said to love one's neighbor without any costs.

It seems like the Christians here are not really realizing the true anti-thesis of G-d's Word in the Koran. Islam is truly anti-Christ. I don't know if anybody is really realizing what I am saying. It seems to fall on deaf ears because one is too focused on petty ecumencism with the Islam and defending Islam. I don't know if anybody is making an effort to be prudent with the Islam. Because you have to realize that they HATE us and yet you continue to say "Oh, they are so nice, they are peaceful people, worship the same G-d as we do, etc." If someone was to hit you, what will you do? Raise your arm to defend your face? Or allow them to strike you until you bleed to death?

If you bleed to death, then there would be no more Christian person living. So, one Christian lost and one Islam GAINED. So in the same way, we must raise our arms up in defense, to preserve the Christian faith which is rapidly detioriorating at a fast rate and absorbed into Islam worldwide.

We need to WAKE UP!

Rather, you need to be focused on Christ, who is TRUTH, the WAY and LIFE. Listen to Him. Then you'll realize how wrong Islam really is.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

There are Catholics (right here on this Forum) who believe exactly the same thing about Jews, Moslems and other non-Christians - haven't you seen the never-ending arguments about the true meaning of "extra ecclesia nulla salus" (outside the Church there is no salvation)? That attitude is certainly not exclusive to Moslems.

Theist-Gal,

Sure, there are a lot of people with these feelings.

But, you have to understand, that the Catholic official teaching does not say that everyone who aren't Catholic will be damned.

On the other hand, with Koran and the Moslem official teaching is that ALL who are not Moslem will be damned. And that it is official teaching that non-Moslems should be KILLED and BURNED IN FIRE with eternal damnation of fire. That is NOT just a sentiments of a Moslem, it is their OFFICIAL teaching of Islam. (can you read this in ENGLISH?) I repeat once again: OFFICIAL TEACHING of ISLAM.

That is SCARY!

There is a HUGE difference between sentiments/opinions of many and official teaching of a religion faith.

Christianity have plenty of witnesses, councils, many books in New Testament and documents all saying the same thing...reaffirming and confirming over and over. The Holy Spirit is at work.

While Islam is inspired by ONLY ONE MAN. The Koran written by ONE MAN. No councils, books, witnesses, etc. to attest to any of it.

Theist-Gal, if you are so sure that Islam is truly inspired by the same G-d of Christians and Jews, then you better join Islam since everyone else will be damned to hell for sure 100%. Go and save yourself! That's what Koran said..and that's what their official teachings are...so they must be right...since it's inspired by G-d.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Now realize this: The Koran is like the "Bible" for Christians and "Torah" for the Jews. Which is an official teaching of a respective religion.

This is what Koran says as well as few other books by the "teachers" of Muhammad:

-------------

Qur�an 47:4 �But if it had been Allah�s will, He Himself could have exacted retribution and punished them (without your help). But He lets you fight in order to test you. But those who are killed in Allah�s Cause, will never let their deeds go to waste.�
Qur�an 8:72 �Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah�s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave them shelter and aided them are your allies. You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.�
Qur�an 8:73 �The infidels aid one another. Unless you do the same there will be anarchy in the land. Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah�s Cause are good Muslims.�

Ishaq:406 �Among us was Allah�s Apostle whose command we obey. When he gives an order we do not examine it. The spirit descends on him from his Lord. We tell him about our wishes and our desires which is to obey him in all that he wants. Cast off fear of death and desire it. Be the one who barters his life. Take your swords and trust Allah. With a compact force holding lances and spears we plunged into a sea of men�. and all were made to get their fill of evil. We are men who see no blame in him who kills.�
Ishaq:414 �If you kill us, the true religion is ours. And to be killed for the truth is to find favor with Allah. If you think that we are fools, know that the opinion of those who oppose Islam is misleading. We are men of war who get the utmost from it. We inflict painful punishment on those who oppose us�. If you insult Allah�s Apostle, Allah will slay you. You are a cursed, rude fellow! You utter filth, and then throw it at the clean-robed, godly, and faithful One.�
Tabari VIII:153 �I ask the Merciful One for a pardon and for a sword blow that makes a wide wound that shoots out foaming blood. For a deadly thrust by a thirsty sword, and a lance that pierces right through the guts and liver. People shall say, when they pass my grave, �Allah guided you the right way, O warrior.��
Tabari VIII:141 �We gave them some time until their herds had come back from pasture. After they had milked their camels and set them out to rest, we launched our raid. We killed some of them, drove away their camels, and set out to return. Meanwhile, the people appealed for aid from the rest of their tribe. But we moved quickly. Reinforced, the villagers were too powerful for us. But Allah sent clouds from out of the blue, and there was a torrent that no one could cross so we eluded the tribesmen with what we had taken. The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: �Kill! Kill! Kill!��

Qur�an 3:141 �This is so that Allah may test the faithful and destroy the unbelieving infidels.� [Another translation proclaims:] �Allah�s object is to purge those that are true in Faith and blight the disbelievers. Did you think that you would enter Paradise while Allah does not know those of you who really fights hard (in His Cause) and remains steadfast? You wished for death before you met it (in the field of battle). Now [that] you have seen it with your own eyes, (you flinch!)�
Qur�an 3:152 �Allah did indeed fulfill His promise to you when you; with His permission were about to annihilate your enemy, until you flinched and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed it after He brought you in sight (of the booty) which you covet. Among you are some that hanker after this world and some that desire the Hereafter.�

Qur�an 9:71 �O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.�
Qur�an 8:59 �The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.�
Qur�an 4:168 �Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.�
Qur�an 4:114 �He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.�

Qur�an 33:64 �Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers [whom he defines as Christians in the 5th surah] and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: �Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!� �Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!��
Qur�an 5:10 �Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire.�
Qur�an 88:1 �Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.�

Qur�an 5:51 �Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.�
Qur�an 74:31 �We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.�

Qur�an 2:64 �But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.�
Qur�an 66:9 �O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelieving Infidels and the Hypocrites; be severe against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil resort.�
Qur�an 60:1 �Believers, take not my enemies and yours as allies, offering them love, even though they have rejected the truth that has come to you, and have driven out the Prophet and you because you believe in Allah! If you have come out to struggle [fight jihad] in My Cause, and to seek My Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love with them: for I am aware of all you conceal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path. If they were to get the better of you, they would be your foes, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil (designs).�
Qur�an 60:5 �We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.��
Qur�an 48:13 �If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!�
Qur�an 48:28 �It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it superior to every other religion, exalting it over them. Allah is a sufficient Witness. Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. Those who are with him are severe with Infidel unbelievers.�
Qur�an 47:3 �Those who disbelieve follow vanities, while those who believe follow truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah coin for men their similitudes [resemblances] as a lesson. Whoever denies faith [in Islam and Muhammad], his work is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.�
Qur�an 9:2 �You cannot weaken Allah or escape. Allah will disgrace the unbelievers and put those who reject Him to shame.�
Qur�an 9:4 �You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.�
Qur�an 9:17 �The disbelievers have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness against their own souls to infidelity. These it is whose doings are in vain, and in the fire shall they abide. Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up devotional obligations, pays the zakat, and fears none but Allah.�
Qur�an 9:28 �Believers, truly the pagan disbelievers are unclean.�
Qur�an 9:30 �The Jews call Uzair (Ezra) the son of Allah, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying from their mouths; they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah�s (Himself) fights against them, cursing them, damning and destroying them. How perverse are they!�
Qur�an 9:33 �He has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam) to make it superior over all religions, even though the disbelievers detest (it).�
Qur�an 9:63 �Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell wherein they shall dwell? That is the supreme disgrace.�
Qur�an 9:66 �Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for they are disbelievers.�
Qur�an 9:113 �It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for the forgiveness for disbelievers, even though they be close relatives, after it is clear to them that they are the inmates of the Flaming Hell Fire.�
Qur�an 5:78 �Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.� Qur�an 5:80 �You see many of them allying themselves with the Unbelievers [other translations read: �Infidels�]. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah�s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.�
Qur�an 5:82 �You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims.�
Qur�an 5:86 �Those who reject Islam and are disbelievers, denying our Signs and Revelations �they shall be the owners of the Hell Fire.�

--------------------

WOW. So the Koran actually named names of those who will go to Hell. I don't remember anything in the Bible that specifically said that the Jews will go to hell. I don't remember anywhere in the Bible that says Kill those who are not Christians. Hmmm...

Well...according to some people on the forum, the Koran must be inspired by G-d, so therefore, it's the TRUTH, is it not? Hmmm.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear SPDundas, I work with Moslems every day, they are all from Africa.Many of them are good workers,but they treat women employees very rudely.Since three out of our five managers are female ,that is a problem.Plus the fact that they play the race card,nobody wants to be called racist.Funny it is OK to sneer at me for fasting four times a year or celebrating Christmas and Easter according to the Julian Calender, but everytime Ramadan comes around, everybody kowtows to them.I guess rebellious old Whitey here just doesn,t merit the same respect.

Sigh.

Of course not.

Mohammed was inspired by the God of Abraham but as Christians, but Christians and Jews would pretty much agree that he wrote his own script from there on. If we were to actually believe in the same exact God as Muslims, then we would believe that God directly dictated the Koran. And we don't believe that. There's some good stuff there, but there is also some scary and inconsistent stuff as well.

Being inspired by the same God (or drawing on what you known of Him for inspiration) is not the same thing AT ALL as believing in the same God. Read my post again more carefully. You are missing the point.

Muslims do not believe in the same God, but their Prophet was clearly inspired by what he thought he knew of Him and the many good people of faith who profess Islam do believe that they are seeking the God of Abraham.

Most of my Jewish friends (who are practicing Jews) believe we Christians are Jews who went astray. Yet one of my friends who is an Orthodox Jewish scholar is fascinated with us and our history and particularly respects Catholocism and Orthodoxy. He actually wrote a brilliant letter to editors of the Jerusalem Post a couple Christmases back, in response to a full page attack ad run by Adventists that was anti-Catholic and insultingly so, pointing out the many errors and lies it contained about Catholics. Few Catholics could have done such a good job defending their faith as an outsider did. We do far better in having people understand us when we engage in dialogue with them about our beliefs. You have to establish some level of trust and friendship to have discussion of that sort with any group.

According to Christians, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Hebrew Testament's promise of a Messiah. That's not just your Jewish friends talking. It's what we believe. The Jews are our spiritual forefathers. Jesus was a Jew. Remember the "youths in the fiery furnace" reading at the Divine Liturgy? (It's one of my favorites.)

Btw, of course no aspect of the Divine Liturgy is based on Islam. Accepting that Muslims do not believe in the same exact God we do and accepting that they would ascribe direct revelation (direct Word) to Him that we would not, why would we do that? But there are some commonalities. There are some Muslims who come to Bethlehem at Christmas to commemorate the Virgin birth, for example.

And on the "kill at will" tact, surely we do not have to bring up the difference of opinion between Catholics and many Orthodox Christians regarding the Crusades and regarding moral theories of war in general? Modern popes, thank the Lord, do not issue "fatwahs" to the unwashed masses. We're really getting back more to our early (and pretty peaceful) Christian roots.

Lots of Copts were killed in the Crusades, btw. They looked and dressed "kinda" like Muslims. I guess that was a big Crusader "oops."? ;-)

Hey, I reject relativism. Sounds like you do to. All religions are not equally correct.

But I think JP2 was a good shepherd in his desire to love his neighbors and reach out to them as a Catholic leader. How many of us would really forgive our would-be assassin and pray with him... really? Not too many...

I still subscribe to the "peace on earth, good will toward men" aspect that takes center stage around Christmas, but should be in our hearts all year. I am not going to hate or revile my fellow man who believes differently. Jesus died to save all mankind. We do best when we are light to the world as Christians, so that people see what we believe and may come to the same Truth we have been shown.

I'm not a Muslim, nor do I want to be. I seriously disagree with many of their doctrines, and certainly am completely unsympathetic with their radical fundamentalist fringe.

But guess what? Having grown up in the Midwest, I feel exactly the same way about Christian fundamentalists. (And if you think there's a huge difference between radical Muslim fundamentalists and radical Christian fundamentalists [en.wikipedia.org] , you just haven't been paying attention. )

But that certainly doesn't mean I condemn the entire religion from which these undeniably evil people spring. I just realize that they are taking the worst elements of their religion's teachings and using them to justify the evil things they want to do. THAT'S what's evil and anti-Christ - in ANY religion.

Theist Gal,

How many "radical Fundamentalist Christians" have killed anyone lately? Just curious.

Dan L

Sigh.
By that reasoning Annie, the Jews do not worship the "exact same" God that we do, nor do Protestants. [The Calvinist God cruely predestines most of humanity to hell!]
By saying that Muslims worship the One God the Church is not saying that they understand His character perfectly, only that they recognize an uncreated Creator Who made all things from nothing and will judge mankind righteously.

On the whole I find the tenor and general intellectual level of this conversation rather dismaying, sort of like discussing Catholicism with someone who keeps quoting Jack Chick.
May I suggest that you put away the sensational polemics and visit your local library for a responsible scholarly overview of Islam?

And if you believe [as I do] that Muslims should be evangelized you are sure going about it in an odd way. Instead of building on what already is present in their religion- you don't have to convince a Muslim, unlike, say, an Anglican bishop, that Mary was a virgin- you throw out insults and call names and distort things. Congratulations, you have successfully turned off any Muslim who hears you.

If I were to approach the Jews the way some of you approach Muslims I could paint quite a picture.
Jews do not believe in the Trinity, nor in the Deity of Christ. Obviously they don't believe in the same God that we do.
I could then list a long series of quotes from the Old Testament about slaying whole tribes and cities, then a series of quotes from the Talmud blaspheming Christ and His Mother and attacking gentiles.

Let's see, though not all Communists are Jews, it must be admitted that Jews have played a disproportionate role in the history of Marxism.
Jews have been leaders in all sorts of destructive intellectual movements in the last two hundred years, from Freud to Marx and so on.
Jews have played an oversize role in the proabortion movement.
Jews are disproportionately represented in the entertainment industry, lowering moral standards. Look at the history of Jewish comics from Lenny Bruce to Howard Stern to what's-her-name Silverman. Look at Jewish involvement in the record industry, reaping profits from gansta rap.
Or look at Jewish involvement in the pornography trade.
And of course I would have to mention Zionist terrorism in the last century and the continual oppression of the Palestinians.
And so on.
Then I could relate anecdotal stories about Jews I have known personally who were hateful or greedy or morally repugnant.

Now, I hope no one is so dense to think I am here declaring the Jews "evil".
I am only illustrating the sort of arguments on this thread against the Muslims and showing where your logic would lead.

-Daniel