www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islamophobia

Dear Daniel,

Personally, I think the issue with Muslims has more to do with catching up to modernity and democratic political culture than theology.

Christians no longer burn heretics at the stake and Crusaders no longer roam the plains of Russia in search of Alexander Nevsky's regiments.

Popes no longer have the power to seat and unseat rulers of nations either.

There is a cultural chasm between the West and Islam but I don't know where it will lead us in future.

Alex

Well, I was specifically thinking of White Supremacist groups such as The Order, which murdered Denver talk-show host Alan Berg about 20 years ago. They're not the only such group out there, either.

And I'm certainly NOT saying such groups are truly representative of Christianity - any more than groups like Al Qaeda are truly representative of Islam.

(Also, just out of curiosity - why "G-d"? Last time I checked, Christians were allowed to use His full name. )

Alex may be correct. I can't follow Daniel at all. Theist Gal, It's hard to imagine one murder which may or may not have had anything to do with religion has much to do with Dhimma and Jihad.

Wake me up when it's all over, will ya?

Dan L

Dear Friends,

As an irrelevant aside, did you know that the English "So long" is an Anglicization of the Arabic, "Salaam?"

It was Anglicized by British troops stationed in the Middle East who picked up this greeting and brought to England and America.

They also destroyed "Enfant de Castille" and turned it into the "Elephant and Castle."

So long!

Alex

Hello,

I understand that some folks are saying that many Christians and Jews have done evil deeds. But that does not reflect on the doctrine of the faith.

Islam, on the other hand, does promote the killing at will to Christians and Jews as a DOCTRINE...based on Koran.

That is a HUGE difference!

I'm not talking about all these Christians, Jews, Moslems, Hindu or who ever doing evil deeds because we are sinful creatures. I'm not talking about Catholics against Protestants...Jews against Moslems. I'm not talking about the burning of the stake, etc.

I'm talking about the fundamentals of the faith...the doctrines...all along. That's what I'm trying to illustrate...that the Moslems hold that killing of the Jews and Christians are to be commended and be rewarded by G-d in Heaven. And that it's their doctrine that ALL must be Moslem according to the plans of the Allah.

Christians burning heretics to the stake does NOT justify anything at all. That is WRONG! The Bible said "Thou shalt not kill"...it's in black and white print in the Scriptures...pretty clear. So I don't care who kills who...it stiil violates G-d's law.

The reason I say "G-d" is because I have lots of Jewish friends and I have a habit of typing it that way. So why not?

SPDundas

PS, Annie, I'm sorry I misunderstood you. Sometimes I have to take more time to read in order to comprehend better. English is "somewhat" my 2nd language or better described as "broken language". So, I'm not always good with English reading comprehension.

Sigh.

"Same" means "same." "Being the very one; identical." We Christians believe in the Triune God, as described in the Creed.

Yes, Jewish people worship (I suppose) 2/3 of God as Christians believe in Him - assuming of course you could divide the Triune God, which we (based on the early church fathers and the theology that grew out of it) absolutely cannot do. They do not believe in the Third Person of the Trinity, Whom a Christian to be a Christian, of necessity, does believe is part and parcel of God. My Jewish and Muslim friends surely differ with it. Indeed, my orthodox Jewish Scholar friend does refer to the "Christian G_d" in his writings to differentiate our understanding from Judiasm.

I am sighing because I cannot believe the venom than some folks seem to have pent up for Muslims. We're supposed to love them. They are human beings made in the very image of God. "Christ died to save all mankind, heirs to the sin of Adam." That most definitely includes Muslims. That includes every single human being. I don't believe in turning off Muslims. I believe in understanding them. I enjoy discussing our different understanding of God with them. I've never had anyone at all offended and I don't take offense at all when my friends tell me what they think is "off" about my Christian understanding of God.

Sorry, I'm argumentative by nature and I guess I should watch that. I'm an attorney. Spent many years after law school pursuing higher studies in theology and church history. I have studied Islam and I have read the Koran (lately preferred as Qu'ran) numerous times. The thing that impresses me about Islam is that many Muslims (and we do have to divide them from the bad charicatures that people keep focusing on) come to the same moral conclusions we do about a great many things that affect how we live our lives. Clearly they are inspired by and seek the God of Abraham. Of that I have no doubt.

Many faiths believe in an uncreated deity who created all, so you cannot hang your hat on that for too long. This belief is not restricted to the "people of the Book." Some native tribes in North America believed in their own version of a triune deity who created the universe and who sent his spirit across the land, and some also awaited a messiah. Some depicted the spirit that their deity sends out across the earth as an eagle. Some believed that their deity had helpers that sound an awful lot like our concept of angels and archangels. The tribes from this view believed a creation story similar in many ways to the Hebrew Testament, with a similar description of how the universe "looked" - and they added nifty movement to their concept of the columns and the dome of the stars. (To some, we rode on a turtle's back or on some other slow moving creature.) To some, the Ghost Dancer Movement of the 19th century was viewed as a messianic movement - i.e., to bring about the coming of a messiah, sent by their deity, and whom believed would come and deliver them (from the white man). The similarities are striking, but there are many many more dissimilarities as well. Their God was not the God of Abraham and that was not Who they were inspired by. The Hebrew Testament was unknown to them.

Perhaps what I differ with is the insistence in using "same" as on oversimplification. I come close to "same," but I do not come to it precisely. In that, you will just have to forgive me.

I love my Jewish and Muslim and Hindu neighbors and friends. I hope they love me back - I think they do. That is what we are called to do at our core - to love. I was very touched with how my Jewish, Muslim and Hindu friends reacted to the death of JP2. They prayed for him within their own faiths. They recognized him as a holy man. He tried to heal past misdeeds. Similarly, a Hindu friend went to an all night service when Mother Theresa died. He said it was packed. The Hindu people viewed her as holy. He was very concerned - deeply concerned -that she wasn't a "saint" instantly. So I got to explain to him how "saints" come about. (I learned a lot about Hindu beliefs and devotions from him. It was fascinating.)

I'll leave you one humorous story:

A co-worker who was born in Turkey and who is a Muslim was recounting his visit to a Marian site to a Catholic co-worker and a couple others, including his Jewish best friend. He took a bunch of pictures because he knew it would be interesting to Christians and especially Catholics. (His daughters are Catholic and he is raising them as such, since that was the promise he had made to his wife when he was married.) Anyway, he mentioned that tradition had it that the Virgin Mary died in a particular house with Saint John at her side. The Catholic guy mentioned that we believe that Mary was assumed in to heaven at that moment. The Turkish-born fellow asked me if that was my understanding, to try to get a Catholic seconding the assertion that the Virgin was assumed into heaven. I said, "yes it is." He just shrugged and paused in thought and that said cheerfully, "I never really fully understood this... but I believe the Prophet rode up to heaven, so I would say that what you say is also possible with regard to the Virgin."

Wake up, Dan. I officially cry Uncle to yet *another* never-ending argument. (and the citation of The Order was just an example - I could also have cited the group(s) behind the Oklahoma City bombing).

But - enough is enough. Because it's time to go Christmas shopping!

(however, since I can't leave well enough alone , here's a link to an article by a Muslim writer in Arizona who seems to be promoting a much more positive form of Islam - what do you think? [beliefnet.com]

I apologize for the misunderstanding we have had. Mea culpa.

What is your first language, spdundas?

When I was a kid, we grew up with multiple languages. Mostly Slovak and Russian. I wish I'd have paid more attention, as my comprehension of these languages is entirely restricted to words in the Liturgy and things you make in the kitchen (we were very food centric on that side of the family - suprise, suprise, right?).

Hey, there TG. Okay, I'll stick a fork in this turkey, it's done as we're gonna get it and we're just going to have to agree to hold our own opinions.

You are going Christmas shopping? Eek. Have fun wrestling the crowd for furbies and cabbage patch dolls (or whatever the must have fad of the year is)! One time, my husband and I went to Walmart on Christmas Eve. We were on our way from visiting someone and had time to kill before the church opened its doors for last minute pre-Christmas confessions. We had already done our shopping, but we went in there to (sad creatures that we are) people watch and kill time. Wow, was it a sight! They should have issued riot gear to the clerks instead of vests!

Dan L,
I think some of the NeoCons of our current administration would classify themselves as Fundamentalist Christians. Don't you? They certainly put George W. in office by forming his base.
I read somewhere that our involvement in Iraq has to do with the Evangelicals' obsession with Israel & Biblical prophecy. There certainly has been lots of killing in Iraq - around thirty thousand last time I heard.
- Wolfgang

wow, annie, that sounds painful - and unfortunately, typical! I've pretty much decided that this year it's gift cards for everyone!

One thing we can give the Muslims - they haven't allowed their holidays to get anywhere NEAR as commercialized as Christmas - even Hannukah is getting there, at least in the West. So far I haven't heard any car dealers suggesting we should give someone a Lexus for Ramadan.

It seems so many of you are DEAF here!

AGAIN I SAY THIS: Actions/beliefs of individuals or such groups are TOTALLY DIFFERENT than a Doctrine or Dogma or a FUNDAMENTAL BELIEF of a religion.

The Islam DOCTRINE says to KILL Jews and Christians at will and convert the whole world to Islam.

(IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU REMAIN DEAF ON THIS FACT??????????) :rolleyes:

If some Moslems are nice and friendly, it's probably only because they don't know the Koran well enough just like Christians don't know the Christian faith well.

True Moslems adhere to full teachings of Koran. So therefore, true Islam believes that everyone who refuses to become a Moslem shall be killed at will and burned into Hell.

We cannot EVEN wear a tiny Cross necklace if we are to set foot in Saudi Arabia. If we did, then we could be tortured for that or even killed! WHY? It's because that is the FUNDAMENTAL RELIGION BELIEF OF ISLAM to do so.

NO where in Christian Bible or Catechism that says that we must kill others if they don't become Christians.

It is true that we must love all no matter what. But we all MUST BE PRUDENT! If we don't, then Christianity will cease to exist!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

My first language is American Sign Language. IT's more bi-lingual...so my first languages are ASL and English hand to hand.

Annie- Why do you hesitate to say that American Indians worshipped the true God? The Catholic Church teaches [de fide, by the way] that man can know God by reason, quite apart from Revelation.
Of course, some things like the Trinity or the Incarnation are mysteries, and cannot be known apart from Divine Revelation.
Not that I don't think God revealed Himself to some Native American seers; surely the visions of Shining Shirt, the Salish holy man who foretold the coming of men in black robes who would teach the People about the One God, seems to have been the recipient of Revelation.
And White Buffalo Calf Woman is widely seen by Indian Catholics as the Virgin Mary.
God revealed Himself to the Jews, but to hold that He was inactive in the rest of His human creation seems naive.
Quite apart from that, Fr Wilhelm Schmidt, SVD, who I mentioned before [a missionary and an anthropologist] came to believe, based on his research, that monotheism was the religion of all "primitive" ie, hunter-gatherer, cultures and that polytheism only took hold when agriculture was developed. He said this was the Adamic tradition that had been passed down.
Muhammad was conversant with Jewish and Christian thought; at the least he received second-hand Revelation.
Again, to say that someone worships the One God does not mean that their understanding of his character is accurate.
Heck, there are people on this forum whose God seems strange to me, and they are Catholic and Orthodox! Strange beliefs and illusions about God are common. Indeed, [also de fide ] the sum total of what any of us understands of God is dwarfed by what we don't know.
-Daniel
ps: Dan, I am getting worried about you; you are seeming pretty dense here...

Theist Gal- Thanks for the link; there are plenty of Muslims who think like that. Religions evolve, after all. There are few Jews who want to slaughter all the neighboring peoples, like back in the old days [though there are still a few!]
One problem is that too many "moderate" Muslims remind me of our liberals, "demythologizing" their faith, or conforming to modern mores [one very vocal "moderate Muslim" is a practicing lesbian!].
It seems what is needed is for a renewal of Islamic piety that is profound and respectful of tradition and more inner-oriented, like the Sufis...
-D

Can't say that I appreciated Khomeini's actions but the Sufis do offer some hope for peaceful coexistence. Still, islam is a heresy at its root. I don't see how even Sufism can be united with Christianity except through individual conversions.

I've asked this at least a dozen times before. Perhaps this time I'll find someone who has actually read Stephen Schwartz, "The Two Faces of Islam". Anyone? Anyone?

Dan L