www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islamophobia

Huh? Khomeini was a Sufi? I never heard anything like that. Are you sure, or are you confusing "Sufi" with "Shia"?
RC Zeahner, the great scholar of mysticism, held that Sufi mystical experience was the same as Christian mystical experience [as opposed to non-theistic or non-monotheistic experience of the Buddhists or Hindus]. A lot of the same "union with the Beloved" sort of themes...
And did you ever see that great movie "The Color of Paradise", one of my favorites, from Iran? It is really beautiful...
-D

Spdundas is entirely correct. We will never reach a peaceful co-existence with Islam, because plain and simple, we seek there conversion while they seek our destruction. Mohammedanism, as it used to be called, is the most agressive and intolerant religion in the history of the world.

Daniel,

I'll double check but I'm pretty sure he was. I don't think he was really as great a threat to the West as we were led to believe. No, I've never seen the film. It sounds good.

The theory about monotheistic mysticism may have some merit. I'll think on that as well.

CDL

Of course, there was a time in our own history when the idea of showing mercy to heretics, schismatics or other nonChristians by letting them live in peace, rather than forcing them to convert; jailing them; torturing them; exiling or killing them; might have been seen as "liberal". (and as you commented re: the Jews, I think we all know there are still a few of those left in the Church! )

Fortunately we have found a way past that - perhaps the Muslims will too. I'm intrigued by your description of the Sufis as I don't really know that much about them - they sound interesting! Are their ideas gaining any ground in the mainstream Muslim population?

Yes, it is hard for us to understand, because as others have pointed out, we know people who are Muslims and don't subscribe to any such doctrine.

Sorry, but while interviewing hundreds of Muslims in Iraq a few were Sufi, however they were no different than any other Sunnis and none were able to explain what they believed in and how it differed from the faith of their neighbors. It sure didn't influence their politics!

Sigh!! Okay, in the spirit of the Christmas season, I give up. All Muslims are evil. Now can I get on with my Christmas shopping?

Daniel,

[one very vocal "moderate Muslim" is a practicing lesbian!].

Hopefully that doesn't define "Moderate Muslim". If so it would be better that they not be moderate.

What do you believe it means to be a faithful Muslim.

CDL

People work this out much better on the ground than they do from distances of time and space.

Sufis cared for the grave of St. Demetri in Thessalonica and it was a worshipping point for Jews, Muslims and Christians. Then the Greeks destroyed old Thessalonica. There were prominent Sufi Christians in the past; one does not have to be a Muslim to be a Sufi. I've seen Muslims worshipping in Christian holy sights in Palestine. Almost every issue of the CNEWA magazine carries some example of how we live together well. I co-administer a Palestinian charity (pcwf.org) with a Muslim; check out what we do for Muslims and Christians.

Greek Enosis, Serbian nationalism, stubbornness in modern Turkey, faltyering Russian chauvanism, tragic events in Egypt and the "second occupation" of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Palestine have created a climate of "Islamophobia" among some of our people. Add to this the various efforts like Project for a New American Century and the neo-con hustles and you get the conditions for a war. The conflicts appear as theological and unsolvable only because that is the only way people can be manipulated into going off to war; this is as true for Muslims as it is for Christians.

A Sufi told me last year "God is your lover and not your jailer" and I have carried this with me. Its good advice. I feel sorry for people who live with labels and slogans but don't get that God loves and liberates.

Faithfully,

bob rossi

Bob,

That is most encouraging. Several years ago I participated in a Christian/Muslim dialogue. It's much better than fighting. We also had the director of the Rockford Area Muslim Association speak at our Church on Ash Wed. during the Gulf War.

I haven't changed my position on the possibilities of peace between peoples nor that we have some commonalities. At the same time my Muslim friends were and are as weary of Muslim radicals and as troubled by the fact that violence can in fact is justified in the Qur'an as we are. I think a realistic approach to the situation is much better than a naive one.

It is possible to work together with people of good will. Praise God for it.

Dan L

Daniel,

I haven't yet found evidence that Khomeini was a Sufi but this article in which he has been quoted as affirming of Sufism may be of interest.
http://www.mindspring.com/~altafb/sufipers.html

CDL

I don't know why it matters if Khomeini was a Sufi or not.

I don't know why people cling to an image or notion of "radical Islam" or why we are so resistant to dialogue. Perhaps because dialogue between peoples dispells prejudices?

I don't know who or what gives anyone the right to conjecture or wring their hands over the lack of a "moderate anything" in another's religion or to appropriate the texts of another's religion for their own purposes.

I don't know why we ourselves hesitate to take on the peopole in our own camps who light the match which sets the gasoline on fire--the Serbian nationalists, the latter-day followers of Enosis, the Patriarchate that sells Christian property to zionisats, the Great Russian chauvanists, etc.

There isn't much I regret about the passing of the long-gone Ottoman Empire. It was spent before it died. But on the ground--and I remember from my childhood some its good remainders--Christians, Muslims and Jews got along and shared forms of spirituality, music, food, some holidays and so on. This included in many cases our clergy.

Its interesting that in the last Palestinian elections Hamas picked up noticeable support in Christian areas. Unfortunatly, this came at the expense of the traditional progressive forces which united Christian and Muslim working people.

Faithfully,

bob rossi

Geez, Theist Gal, you're not getting this.

I DON'T CARE whether people subscribe to the Islam doctrine or not.

What I care about is the DOCTRINE of Islam itself, a religion belief that Jews and Christians should be eliminated and burned.

Because of their Islamic religion teaching, Islam and Christians/Jews will never live together in peace. Until Islam changes their doctrine into a religion of peace and love, then we all can live in peace.

It's because of the evil Doctrine of Islam, terrorism continues to grow and spread. Their hate is being fed by the Koran!!! Their idealogy is being taught and promoted in Islam schools even in AMERICA!

A normal everyday Moslem that goes to Moslem school learns that doctrine and their ciriculum (sp?) promotes the hate towards Jews and Christians.

WAKE UP, Lady!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Okay, all other things aside, I'd appreciate it if you'd quit SHOUTING at me. :rolleyes:

And if waking up means agreeing with your personal opinions, as opposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stay asleep.

from Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions at The Second Vatican Council) Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, October 28, 1965:

And - in his 1994 book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote:

Icon., I suppose Black Elk certainly took an interesting personal journey. He seemed to connect the deity he believed in as a Lakota seer to his later beliefs as a Christian. He never rejected the earlier visions he believed in as a Lakota, but tried to make sense of them in light of his conversion to Christianity.

Ah, now, spdundas' first language is ASL. Fascinating. And very cool. I understand why he is very much to the point. ASL is a very direct language - my co-worker uses it (he also speaks English and Chinese) and several of us have learned (or tried to learn in my case, I am NOT gifted with languages) ASL in an effort to communicate with him better.

Yes, TG, no one seems to be advertising Lexuses for Eid. People who celebrate the holiday seem to spend time with their families in gatherings and in prayer - too bad *we* cannot seem to strip the over-commercialization out of our Christmas celebrations.