www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Bush uses Gulags?!?!!?!?!?!?!!

John believes what he believes with the religious conviction of a fanatic; I have discovered that it is pointless to argue with those for whom America's Good Intentions are an article of Faith, and will bow out of this discussion.
May I recommend the Terry Gilliam movie Brazil as a particularly apt [and prescient] commentary on our situation?
-Daniel

I don't believe we were responsible for putting Saddam in place, nor do I believe that it is up to the USA to decide who rules other countries. That is what "independence" and "self-determination" is all about. It is up to the people of that country to decide who rules them. And it is up to the people of that country to elect a new government, or 'rise up' against a dictator, a king, a shah, a caliph, a communist party, or whoever, if 'they' want to change 'their' government. People more oppressed than the Iraqi have done so successfully. These success stories, of people effectively changing their governments, have been triumphs of democracy, principally because it was begun in the populace, accomplished by the populace, and done at the will of the populace.

When it is imposed by outside "help" (even if it was self-less, which our invasion of Iraq certainly was not), it is doomed. These efforts will work, only when they are driven by, and supported by the population.

I don't think "regime change" is a good way to run US foreign policy. It's illegal, in international law. But this country seems to have thrown the conventions of international law out the window, under the theory that "might makes right".

Well, one day, we may be sorry that we disregarded and sidelined the international law and the agreed conventions of warfare, because we cannot then invoke its principles when we need them.

Why haven't we overthrown, the governments of North Korea, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Liberia, Ivory Coast, China and dozens of other despotic and murderous regimes, who are starving their people, commiting genocide in their regions, persecuting religious believers, and who are disregarding the rights of their citizens?

Because it is neither a legitimate nor justifiable way to conduct the affairs of nations.

Nor is it effective, as our experience in Iraq will prove.

Nick

Getting terrorists to hallucinate is a great idea! That is when you get the details about where and when their organization plans to strike next. With that information you can save the lives of those they are planning to murder in the name of Allah.

Torture is what Saddam Hussein did: feeding children into meat grinders in front of their parents in order to obtain information from their parents about possible traitors to Hussein and his �peaceful� regime. Torture is cutting off fingers one by one and then hands and arms. Sleep deprivation and loud music is not torture and I am sorry that anyone should consider it such, or should compare it as an equal to real torture.


And when America defeated the British George Washington had effective control of nothing. And it took more than a dozen years for a permanent constitution to be created and ratified and a new government put in place. Look at Germany and Japan, which were considered utter failures in government by many yet within 20 years after the end of WWII had established themselves as democracy. It�s amazing how people will not give other nations time to establish themselves. I guess it�s the price of the 30 minute sitcom where everything resolves itself quickly.

79% of Iraqi votes voted to adopt the new constitution. Yes, all those purple fingers were relegated a small paragraph on page A13 of The Washington Post and, perhaps your local newspaper so you might have missed it.

Those of us who believe that defeating the Islamists and extending liberty to the Middle East is important see this 78% victory of the constitution as good news. We also see the other accomplishments these past few years as good: the abandonment of nuclear weapons by Libya; the beginnings of democracy in Egypt; and the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon.

Yes, please name them. And please detail the relationships and note that in most cases where we supported dictators we did so because they were assisting us to fight even an even greater evil. And please be consistent. If you condemn us for supporting a dictator who helped us in the Cold War you must also condemn us for working with Stalin to assist us in fighting Hitler. As distasteful as it was for the Allies to accept the support of Stalin to defeat Hitler it was certainly necessary.

Actually, the evidence is showing that while Hussein and the terrorists did not work together directly together the trail shows that Hussein funneled a lot of money to support Al Queida. It does not appear to be as much money as they received from the Saudis, but it is quite a lot.

Nope, not a religious fanatic. I examine the evidence and what everyone says and then make up my own mind. I do seem to remember that you praised Hussein for keeping the streets of Baghdad beautiful. I was left wondering if you would ever do something to help those in need if it came at a personal cost.

So you would have done nothing to help all those countries who invited Hitler to take control of them? Or those countries that invited Stalin to come in to take arms?

I see it differently. When people are suffering we ought to help. We cannot help everyone everywhere but we can help some as we are able. We must do what is right even when others are too afraid to do so. One man (or country) with courage can set much aright. I am sorry that Nick would rather see some left unliberated because all cannot be helped.

Admin

John- I never said any such thing. All I said was that Baghdad was once a beautiful city and since the American invasion it is ruined. I did not praise Hussein at all...Sheesh.
-D, backsliding on his promise to stay out of discussions with fanatics.

Torture is torture, and two wrongs do not make a right. I would have no objection to giving the terrorists in question a nice muscle relaxant and some truth serum....but not torture. The information we need can be obtained without harming someone.

Gaudior, disgusted that "levels" of torture are being considered, here.

Theist Gal....I've one thing to say...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :p

Edited by Admin to break up the very long "No" which was making the page annoyingly wide.

When they came for the protestors, they were called terrorists, and people applauded:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL&type=printable

Or as another example (and yes it is ACLU -- sometimes they do defend people needing it too): http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=19125&c=206

George, and the continental congress, had the support of the people in the colonies, and that is why they prevailed against the Brits. The American revolution was broadly (though not universally) supported, and as a 'grass roots' movement, it was destined to success.

The invasion of Iraq was not broadly supported, can certainly not be described as a 'grass roots' movement among the Iraqi people, and did not, and does not have their support. That is why it is failing. As an occupying Army, there was a small window of opportunity, where we might have won the hearts and minds of the Iraqi nation, but we bungled that. (We should not be too hard on ourselves there, ruling a country like Iraq is no easy task, our only fault there was grossly underestimated the task of occupation.)

Now we have tried the old colonial trick, of justifying our presence, by trying to cast ourselves as the mediator between factions within the country. That has never worked either. Africa and Asia is full of former colonies where that was tried, and it only back-fired.

As for Hitler [a good example], this illustrates the point perfectly. The allies did not go to war to liberate the German people, or because Hitler was a bad leader, or even defend the Jews.

We went to war, because he invaded Poland, and illegally absorbed Czechoslovakia into the German state. He broke international law, and began the war.

Contrary to the lies told by the US Government, Sadam was no threat to the US. (or certainly less a threat than many other nations we have not chosen to invade yet).

The US invaded a sovereign state. We cannot claim high moral ground in this action.

Nick

In the context of a discussion about the wrongdoings of Hussein a positive comment of how he kept Baghdad clean (or at least kept the killings out of sight) is very much like going out of your way to praise Hitler for making Berlin beautiful or for making the trains run on time.

I�m still waiting for your action plan on what measures you would have used to end the Hussein�s atrocities without the use of force, given that the United Nations was not about to act since it was raking in billions of dollars on the �Oil for Food� scandal.

You must be reading the revisionist American history books!

If you read some of the British accounts of America at that time you�ll see that the American Independence was not broadly supported and could never have been described as a �grass roots� movement among the loyal British people living in America.

Don�t believe the American media. Spend some time reading the online blogs of the Iraqi people, together with those of the American military stationed in Iraq.

Did I miss something? When did we formally annex Afghanistan and Iraq? Did we not assist those countries in writing and voting on new constitution? There is no credible parallel to what the European countries did in Africa and Asia in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Or perhaps you are suggesting that America has purged from the history books the account the British effort to create a new constitution and provide self-rule for the American colonies in the middle of the 18th century? Sorry, but your comparison is not credible.

All of the evidence at the time indicated that Hussein was indeed a threat to the West, and especially the United States. If one accuses the U.S. Government of lying about the evidence they made their decision on, then one must be consistent and also accuse the British, French, Germans, Russians, Saudis, Israelis, Pakistanis, and the many other countries that had identical information.

Freeing millions of people who are enslaved by a tyrannical dictator is a moral good.

Admin

and when Saddam Hussein invaded a soverign nation nobody cared. No one protested that invation.

Dear Daniel,

I thought all Americans were fanatics!

Frankly, I wish we Canucks had more of the patriotic spirit you guys have.

P.S. do you fly "Old Glory" outside your home?

Alex

Alex! It's been a while; welcome back.
No, I don't fly the American flag as it has been hijacked by the neocons to represent support of their attempted empire.
And while I am staying out of this probably futile attempt to state the obvious to John, in whose world Iraq is going swimmingly and we don't torture people- but hey if we do what's the big deal?- I do want to remind you that my comments about Baghdad are being twisted badly; I only stated that before the American invasion it was a beautiful city; I didn't credit Hussein.
John should consider going to work for the Bush administration; I hear there is a job opening in the Cheney office.
Daniel

So when are you going to move out of a country you consider to be so evil? I understand you can get some good deals on housing in the Paris suburbs these days, particular in those communities dominated by Muslims.

Please read my posts. You�ll see that I have been consistent in describing the process of assisting the Iraqis and Afghanis to build democracy in their respective nations is a very �messy� undertaking, and one that will take a generation (as indicted at the start of the war). I have never used a term like �swimmingly�. There is, however, a lot of good going on in both Afghanistan and Iraq. You just won�t find it reported in most Western media where being anti-freedom is in vogue.

The context in which you spoke made it clear that you saw the physical damage done to the city as more reprehensible then the evil done by the Hussein.

A wonderful compliment based on a great idea! Thanks!

Dear Administrator,

Are there any openings in Washington for someone like me?

Would I need to repudiate allegiance to the Crown?

As for flying flags, wearing lapel pins etc. - there's no problem there for me!

And I'm not one to "beat around the Bush . . ."

Anyway, have a great weekend.

I don't want to get in between you and Daniel here . . .

Alex

Dear Daniel,

In the province of Newfoundland and Labrador up here, there is a special separatist flag they put up whenever they are cheesed off at the central government - it is a form of the Irish flag of yore.

But our media never depict it - I guess they figure one Quebec separatist movement is enough!

Cheers!

Alex

Alex,

There are plenty of openings in Washington for all sorts of people: blue collar, white collar, liberal and conservative. I think the current unemployment rate is about 1%. I know that the Sunday paper is thick with employment listings.

What would you like to do? Perhaps you could be a writer for the politicos on Cap Hill? Are you able to go on at great length and yet say absolutely nothing?

Don�t worry about Daniel. He and I are fast friends. The only real grudge he has against me is that I don�t like dark, syrupy beer. And the only real grudge I have against him is that he has not accepted any of my invitations to down a few brews on my deck.

Admin

Invite: The forecast for both Saturday and Sunday is sun and 78 degrees. I�ll be doing either steak or burgers on the grill. All are welcome to drop by. If anyone can manage to bring Daniel I will make sure to have some dark, syrupy beer on hand.