www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Episcopal Diocese Seeks to Unite With Rome

Alex,

I would guess that it was early to mid 20th century, during which several such actions were taken. I'm very certain that there were no meaningful reunions, prior to that of the Graymoors, since the Reformation period - but there have been some since. My own sentence regarding them should have said:

"The first corporate entry into Roman communion of a religious community from the Anglican (or its counterpart Episcopal) Church since the Reformation was that of the Franciscan Friars and Sisters of the Atonement (the Graymoor Friars and Sisters), who were received into the Church in 1909 or 1910." (Emphasis added), rather than "The only corporate entry ..."

Being very familiar with the Cowley Fathers, who have a monastery in Boston, and knowing their very Anglo-Catholic bent, it didn't occur to me that you may have mistyped. I don't know if Moorhouse reproduced, or if you've had any other opportunity to read, the correspondence among Abbott Aelred, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and other Anglican hierarchy - which took place over about a 3 year period, before the final decision of the monks to seek communion with Rome. The monks wanted very badly to maintain themselves within the Anglcan Communion. In the end, it became clear that, doctrinally, they were ill-suited to remain there, having really become too Catholic to do so. However, neither they nor the Anglican hierarchy realized that, until near the end of a protracted juridical course initiated in response to a rather simple request by the Abbott. The correspondence should be required reading for hierarchs on how not to deal with their contented subjects - lest they be driven to become subjects of another.

I agree that the Neo-Oxford Movement, as it's sometimes called, is very real. Curiously, and it's a particularly English approach, many of them will remain in their own Church and work to effect re-communion from within - acknowledging and encouraging, but not taking definitive action on what they seem to believe. (Perhaps somewhat analagous to Soloviev's relationship with Catholicism?)

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

I've read that correspondence and Moorhouse does summarize it in his book.

My referencing the slow "Catholicization" of Anglican monastic groups over time was also an attempt to understand how those groups, while still considering themselves to be Anglicans in communion with the Anglican Church, had become culturally (in terms of spiritual patrimony) quite alienated from it - this could have helped push them into Rome's embrace even further.

In a number of respects, I would venture to say (and I could be wrong) that the current High Church Anglicans seeking Rome out now closely resemble the situation with the Ruthenian Metropolia of Kyiv in the 1590's.

They saw themselves every bit as "Orthodox" and "Catholic" as Rome or Constantinople - but that their relationship with the latter had reached a kind of stalemate and so it was time to seek out a similar relationship with another major Church centre.

Apart from the commemoration of the Pope, there really wouldn't be any other noticeable change in the liturgical lives of these Anglicans, once they achieve communion with Rome.

In a number of cases, such as with Fr. Greene of St Bart's, the Pope is already being commemorated . . .

Fad saol agat

Alex

All,

I hope that everyone has been able to visit the link that I provided above, in my previous reply. It mentions the comments from Archbishop Brunett of Seattle on the situation in the Episcopal church.

After visiting Episcopal diocesan sites it is hard to pinpoint the diocese wishing to leave the Anglican Communion, since it seems so many bishops from many diocese in that church are angered at their national body.

An Anglican Rite (church sui juris) should be created in the very near future to help any of those Anglicans who wish to become Roman Catholic make an easy transition. The Pastoral Provision currently in place would be unsuitable for such a large numbers that are expected to come over.

Any thoughts?

ProCatholico

Hi Pro!

Yes, I finally had a chance to look over the link, I hadn't looked at this thread since it started. The article was interesting, as well as a couple of others linked to the site.

I have read in other places Catholics reacting with gleeful anticipation of what will happen next but I think that is ill advised.

Perhaps the establishment of an Anglican Rite is overdue. I understand the English Roman Catholic hierarchy has been opposed to the idea, for them I can understand why.

I had hoped years ago to see an Anglican use parish erected in my area, it never happened but the idea of it was attractive to me. I am sure many people would be attracted to an Anglican Catholic church, it could actually revitalize the whole church by example of piety and reverence.

I have two new thoughts on the news that a diocese may be exploring the possibility of union with the Catholic Communion.

-1- It's probably not New Hampshire.

-2- It would have to be a diocese with a notoriously low number of women priests, or none.

Does any bishop within the (P)ECUSA have the kind of authority or popularity to pull a diocese intact out of the Anglican communion and into the Catholic communion? Does anyone know of bishops or theologians from that church that have the charisma and respect to persuade large numbers of Vestrys to go for it?

I also must wonder, is conservative Anglicanism really that close to Catholicism? It is as likely to be Evangelical as to be Anglo-Catholic. I could see the shock of the whole affair causing a whole lot of soul-searching but this church has sustained itself for four centuries by differentiating itself from Catholicism on a number of important points.

This could easily be just another manifestation of the politics inside the (P)ECUSA and not a serious attempt at reunion. After all, they do have the Anglican Mission to turn to, what do they need Rome for? Could this be a leverage-seeking maneuver vis-a-vis the worldwide Anglican communion?

I believe that there has been and will continue to be a great deal of fallout over Robinsons elevation, but I doubt there will be any dioceses changing hats within the next couple of years. Ordinary pewpeople are likely to vote with their feet, but once they stride through the red door that last time they could go anywhere. I suspect the Episcopal church will continue to lose laypeople, ministers and buildings in a piecemeal fashion for a long time to come.

I am wrong about a lot of things, this opinion could be wrong too, but I think that if there is to be a newly erected Anglican rite it would be in the form of a totally new establishment with some retired or resigned Episcopal bishops putting the call out for resumes from dissaffected priests with the permission of Rome.

But mostly I think that it's all just dreaming on our part.

Michael

Michael,

I suspect that you are correct. I would hope with our friends that all Christians everywhere would awaken one day soon and in masse come home. But it is very unlikely to happen. I will pray to that end and perhaps I should have more faith that it will happen. But experience in Protestant circles tells me otherwise. I hope that many will come home but doubt seriously that an entire Diocese will make a move together.

Dan Lauffer

Union of Brest.

Union of Uzhorod.

---------------------

Union of Lagos (Nigeria)?

Union of Pittsburgh?

Union of Fort Worth?

The Bishops of these Anglican Dioceses have been quite outspoken against the changes in their church.

May they lead their flocks in the way the Lord wills.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

I would really like to see the churches in Pakistan and Sudan (and yes, Nigeria) come to Rome because both churches are struggling in places like that, and the division is scandalous before Muslim neighbors who really don't understand Christianity and can barely tolerate it's presence.

I can imagine that Anglicans in the Muslim world are really perplexed by what's happening in the U.S.A right now. The anxiety level is probably going up beyond anything they have ever experienced before.

MichaEL

I disagree with this comment.

They are not running to the Catholic Church becasue of the ordination of anyone, they are running to the Catholic Church because the Anglician Communion has run away from the True Faith by ordaining a divorced man who is active sexually and also because the Episcopal Church has opened the door for blessings of sex outside of marrige.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

David,

I do agree with you, but then again the Anglican Church ran away from the True Faith almost half a millenium ago.

Logos Teen

Michael,

Thank you for your informative response. I would have to say that, for myself, the prospect of an establishment for an Anglican Rite within the Roman Church is exciting.

I do not care for sheer numbers in the church, because God never promised us this to begin with.
Thankfully though we do have large amounts of faithful around the world. But this of course is not a fact that we should boast with, but rather, humbly accept it.

As a Roman Catholic I do feel that my/our church (along with its Eastern Catholic sister churches) is the manifestation of the True Church which Jesus intended for. What I am getting at is this; the doors shall remain open for all those who seek to reach the Truth, at whatever point in history. Therefore if Anglicans wish to come over en masse today, they sould be allowed to do so, in a way that is as subtle as possible to facilitate the transition. The creation of an Anglican Rite would certainly do this.

As I have stated previously, the Pastoral Provision currently in place would be unsuitable for extremely large numbers of Episcopal converts.

Whether we will get large numbers or not, this is not the point. The fact is, we will be recieving into the faith many new members quite soon and we should open our arms to them and give them our welcome.

As to the diocese which has reportedly wanted to come over, I doubt such an act will materialize. And if it does, it will be difficult to undertake.
There are too many variables such as, removing any women priests, and so on. Also, as it was mentioned, I doubt that any Episcopal bishop has the power to corporately remove his flock from their national body.

In closing, I pray that all Episcopalians who truly feel the call to become Roman Catholic, do so. And I also pray that we Catholics embrace them when they do come.

ProCatholico

All,

It has been a few days since I heard any new info. on the situation within the Episcopal church. I have been wondering, if anyone has heard of any new news on this subject?

Thanks, and may God richly bless you all.

Dear PC,

I understand that talks are continuing and that some other parishes in other places have joined in too - this from a High Anglican friend of mine who is close to the situation.

He himself told me that if the matter is realized, he himself will join an Anglican Rite parish!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Did your friend mention how close or good the prospects are for union. Thanks.

In Christ,
Anthony

I do not know of any particular diocese but have heard reports of at least 1000 priests and their communities who are in dialogue with Rome and are seeking some kind of jurisdiction, desiring to come over en masse.
We can only hope and pray.
Stephanos I

Some random thoughts as an Episcopalian..

How on earth did someone get an ENTIRE diocese to agree on anything? Have you ever seen a single parish agree on something?

2. Will the RCC allow thier married priests to be ordained as Catholic priests? Boy that will open a big can-o-corn w/ American Catholics. Yes, WE know that the RCC allows Eastern Rite priests to be married, but let's face it..the average Latin Rite Catholic doesn't know this, and it would be problematic for the American Roman hierachy, given the Pope's hard line on celibacy in the face of a priest shortage.

3. Remember, these folks aren't running to something, they're running away from something. Most of them probably never considered joining the RCC. My hunch is that they would at best be "cafeteria Catholics"; picking and choosing which doctrines to accept.

4. Maybe the Pope and the ABofC can work out an exchange...we'll give them the conservative Episcopalians in exchange for the members of "Voice of the Faithful" (who can't seem to stop moaning and kvetching about thier own church).