www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall invented greetings

Dear Amado,

"I shall return" to this issue . . .

Alex

My word - I've at least started a discussion. Anything is better than being ignored (to be both Incognitus and Ignored would be a bit much).
Somebody asks what I have in mind by "tradition" - well, I'm unconcerned in this instance with Webster. Check Deuteronomy 32:9. But let's take some examples. "Christ is Risen" surely requires no defense (there is a linguistic problem with it, but we can leave that to the experts). "Christ is born - Glorify" (no, that is not a typo - I left out the pronoun on purpose) is the opening of the Christmas Matins Canon - in Greek Khristos gennatai, dhoxasate! - commonly attributed to Saint Cosmas, who probably got that phrase from an earlier patristic source.
"Christ is amongst us" is found in the Divine Liturgy, where it is prescribed for the Kiss of Peace.
"Slava Isusu Khrystu" is an approximate translation of the Latin Laudetur Iesus Christus (response: In aeternum. Amen), which is why it is confined to people whose roots are in Austria-Hungary.
"Christ is Baptized",however, is of far more recent vintage - I first encountered it in the nineteen-sixties, when it was thought to be a joke, along with "Christ is Circumcised", which someone quoted in another post (I've also heard some responses to that one which won't bear quoting here!). Recent invented traditions have a tendency to be pushed backward in time (several examples come to mind), so I'm not surprised to find claims that it descends from remote ancestors. But such assertions require the proverbial grain of salt. But if anyone can offer a source for it and a response to it from a patristic homily or a liturgical text, I shall be most interested.
In Galicia, incidentally, "Khrystos Razhdaiestsia - Slavite!" usually remains until the Encounter of the Lord, so there would be no need for a special greeting for Theophany. Actually, one could concoct a greeting out of the brief verse following Psalm 50 at Matins: Khristos ephani en Iordhani. It even rhymes! But I've never heard that one used, and I'm not holding my breath.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, and everyone who may feel moved to do so. Incognitus

While I have no problem at all with the Theophany greeting, "Christ is Baptized" with the response, "In the Jordan" or "In the River Jordan," I once too thought this to be a more recently concocted tradition among our people. In addition, I've heard it used across the board in the USA, including Ruthenian and Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes and ones belonging to the OCA and some other Orthodox jurisdictions (Johnstown certainly). Since it was not used at my home parish, I was not used to it until I heard it in other places, beginning in the late 1970s or early 1980s. It's lack of use at home did not surprise me, because our parish there unfortunately had lost many of the traditional practices that were once used in that locale, thanks to the minimalism of liturgical usage promoted by our now long-time pastor. A once active and culturally/spiritually alive parish was brought to its knees when the first resident pastor was assigned who again, has always ascribed to a strict sense of liturgical minimalism (neither this nor that - as he would even admit). Prior to his tenure, our cantor worked hard to teach and pass on the Rusyn traditions to the parishioners, including a beautiful and renowned choir which performed both liturgical music and cultural songs, dances and plays; Rusyn School (Ruska Shkola) where people learned to read, write and converse in Rusyn-Ukrainian as well as a knowledge of Church Slavonic; and to all of this, much more was passed down by this illustrious Professor. Almost all of it was suppressed with the appointment of this particular pastor.

But, I digress. Although I first thought that the Theophany greeting was unnecessary, since, as has been mentioned, the Christmas one would suffice for the entire season, the "newer" greeting grew on me and I became used to it and practice it now myself. However, I was totally convinced that it was something that developed here in the US, in imitation of the other seasonal greetings. Rather than the response, "In the River Jordan" or "In the Jordan" I always thought that a more "doxological" or "affirmational" line would be appropriate, since the other greetings are all designed in that fashion: "Glorify Him" - "Indeed He is Risen" - "He is and shall be" - "Glory Forever" - etc. My thought then was that we do not say, "Christ is Born" - "In Bethlehem" or "Christ is Risen" - "From the grave" or "In Jerusalem" - etc, so the Theophany greeting should also contain some kind of similar response to the other more common ones. "Glorify Him" was one variation that I heard used in certain parishes, including one led by the Archimandrite Joseph mentioned above, now of Holy Cross Monastery in DC. I did not oppose the greeting, but simply wondered about it various forms and implications.

Only later on, since my pastoral ministry among our newer immigrants, did I realize that this Theophany greeting is actually used in the "old country" as well, particularly it would seem, in Halychyna (Galicia) and Subcarpathian Rus'. My parishioners, the great majority of whom have been in the USA for under ten years, use this greeting among themselves and in the church and when I greet them with "Christ is Baptized" ("Khrystos Krestivsya"), they quickly respond, "In the River Jordan" ("Na ritzi Yordani"). So, my former idea that this greeting was a development in North America was dispelled by this witness of its usage among our people in Eastern Europe. I would doubt that it was transferred across the ocean from North America to Ukraine/Subcarpathia, especially since until recently, there was not as much communication between the two, during the Soviet era, especially between many of the Ruthenians in the US and their relatives in Subcarpathian Rus'.

As we know, the feasts that now comprise the "Winter Pascha" were originally celebrated together as feasts of the "Manifestation of Our Lord Jesus Christ." They included his birth, the visit of the Magi, his Baptism in the Jordan and his first public miracle at the Wedding in Cana of Galilee - all forms of the "manifestation" of Jesus to the world. At first, they were celebrated together on January 6, only later to become separated into three (actually four) distinct celebrations. The Wedding at Cana gradually was removed from the other observances in the East, although interestingly, in the Roman Office, the historical connection of the four events is still quite visible in the prayers and antiphons of the Liturgy of the Hours as well as in the lectionary and sacramentary, during the time between the Epiphany and the Baptism, all of which mention the Cana Wedding along with the other events. On the Second Sunday of Ordinary Time, now the first Sunday following the feast of the Baptism, the Gospel of the Wedding at Cana is read (at least in Year C, I'm not sure about the other cycles). The original historical connection of these scriptural events of manifestation is retained for those who pray the office or pay greater attention to the liturgical cycle.

In regards to any patristic origins for this type of practice, I do not know at present, but there are many sermons of the Fathers relating to the feast of the Theophany - Epiphany - Manifestation of Our Lord, so when time permits, I may review some of these to see if there is indeed anything among those texts which might lend credence to our current usage. Nevertheless, a custom that relates to or emphasizes a certain holyday or aspect of our faith in a positive sense need not necessarily have apostolic or patristic origin to be deemed appropriate, helpful or even "proper" although such a history would certainly be of interest.

In any case, I agree with the good Archimandrite who said that if such a tradition or greeting brings people closer to Our Lord, or helps them to keep the ideas expressed in the liturgy closer to their every day lives, then it is a good and praiseworthy thing to encourage them to continue, as well as even looking for new ways in which our customs can evolve that will accomplish a more thorough "meeting" of our spiritual and temporal lives, and bring the faith we profess in church into contact with our everyday routines and practices.

God bless you all at this holy time of the year.

Christ is Baptized! - In the River Jordan!

Fr. Joe

Bless, Father Joseph!

Actually, I think that we East Slavs especially have beautiful, high traditions associated with the Theophany that set us apart from the West whose main focal point seems to be the Nativity alone.

The memory of the outdoor Jordan services in the midst of winter with the ice Crosses and the blessing of the waters is something that is truly glorious!

The Circumcision or Naming of Jesus is truly "Eastern" and especially in terms of the spirituality of the Holy Name in the Jesus Prayer and Hesychasm that is our patrimony.

If one were to "concoct" a greeting on the Naming of Jesus, I would say that one person begins with the first part of the Jesus Prayer and the other ends it.

The new greeting for the Jordan is a beautiful one that underlines the precise event of this particular aspect of the Winter Pascha that we are celebrating.

Why not?

Everyone in my neck of the woods uses it. There's no going back now!

Alex

Father Joseph's parish sounds truly enviable, apart from the hiatus.
Father Joseph comments, aptly I think, that "the other greetings are all designed in that fashion: "Glorify Him" - "Indeed He is Risen" - "He is and shall be" - "Glory Forever" - etc." and hence a doxological response is appropriate. That in turn reminds me of the Latin version I've occasionallly encountered for Christmas: Puer Natus Est! Pro nobs!
As to the question "why not", I suppose my response is that I prefer to maintain the uniqueness of the Paschal greeting.
Incognitus

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!!
Christ is amongst us!! He is and always will be!!! (Thank God for that!)

Alex posted:

"Good-bye" as I understand it was formerly "God be with ye!"

If I remember correctly, the "y" in older forms of English was pronounced as "th": thee.

I might as well add that the cultural police should ban "Good Luck" if they want to be against speech which refers to God. My understanding is that this was originally a blessing "(May) God look (on you) or (on you with His Kindness)." I floored a fundamentalist Christian with that once when he reprimanded me for using the phrase as I bid one of his relatives "goodbye and good luck."

May the Lord preserve these wonderful customs in the midst of each of your communities. I, for one, am always edified by hearing someone use them. And even when I get the Theophany response wrong, the person greeting me is always glad that I respect him and his faith expression enough not to just ignore him. It's sad that we Latins have lost this type of thing, but it probably is also a function of our history in the English-speaking part of Christendom: the Protestants were rather thorough in working to stamp out anything they considered "popish" even in everyday speech.

Keep it up, brethren, the modern world sorely needs your living witness.

In Christ,

BOB

In the search for "tradition" regarding what I have been calling - and for the moment will still call - the "invented greeting" of Theophany, there are a few sources one might suggest. I've already mentioned liturgical texts, but nobody seems to want to try that source. So here are two more possibilities: many prayer-books of the Ukrainian-Ruthenian tradition list "Christian Greetings". I have two in front of me, both of very recent provenance. Each of these books gives the four possibilities we are familiar with: Slava Isusu Khrystu, Christ is amongst us, Khristos Razhdaietsia and, of course, Christ is Risen.
Has anyone run across any prayer book, published anywhere, giving the "Christ is Baptized" greeting? If so, might publication data be forthcoming?
The four greetings with which we are familiar are quite normally used in pastoral letters on the appropriate occasions; many of these pastoral letters are available in published collections. Has anyone some examples of pastoral letters which greet the faithful with "Christ is Baptized"? If so, might publication data be forthcoming?
Obviously, the older the published source - if anyone can produce published sources - the more convincing it will be.
One of our contributors has suggested that it is rare to find cultural [or anti-cultural] influence from America reaching back to Eastern Europe. Would that this were true! Unfortunately, one could cite examples only too easily.
Incognitus

>If I remember correctly, the "y" in older forms of English was pronounced as "th": thee.<

No. The letters eth and thorn gave the sounds in 'think' and 'the'. Y was pronounced as an ee.

Some people mistake the thorn - looks quite like a p - for a y when the top of it is not completely closed.

ye is plural/polite, not to be confused with the pronoun thee , which is the singular/familiar form.

Spasi Khristos -

Mark, monk and sinner.

Incognitus,

The Exaltation from Theophany Matins:

We extol You, O Christ the Giver of Life, for you were baptized for us today in the flesh by John in the waters of the Jordan.

The third Sticheron of the Praises:

O Savior, You were baptized in the Jordan and have sanctified the waters...

Well not exactly :Christ is baptized! In the Jordan! one can see how this was drwn out of the hymns of the Feast. Personally I like: Christ is Baptized! For our salvation!

Now while we are at it what do think of: Christ is ascended! From heaven to earth!

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Incognitus,

I was at my Godmother's 40th day Liturgy on Saturday - and I did see a Ukrainian prayerbook for sale that had the "Christ is baptized" greeting.

I also have a recording of "Schedrivky" from the Old Country where this greeting is used.

It is also used, quite generally, in the five parishes that I know in this area.

It doesn't bother me if people stick with "Christ is Born" at the Theophany.

It is just that "Christ is Baptized" really pinpoints the event being celebrated.

It is also a greeting that comes closest to having achieved "rights of citizenship" alongside the other greetings. Our priest also greets the people with this greeting at the Theophany.

And since I haven't yet read the Apostles ever using THAT greeting, it too is invented.

I myself am now in the habit of greeting people with the three-fold kiss and saying, "Christ is among us."

I know that traditionalist Orthodox say that it a usurpation of clerical privilege.

But I"m an EC heretic, so I don't know any better .

Alex

Dear Bob,

May God look favourably on you too!

Good one!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Should you ever greet me that way, I would probably be inclined to paraphrase good St. Thomas More's famous quote: "The Queen's good servant, but God's first"!

Glad to have you back!

Theist Gal :-)

Happy New Year, Dolly!!

Monarchists up here tend to be very zealous in promoting prayer in public and other religious values.

The Queen herself has visited the rebuilt parish church where St Thomas More worshipped in Chelsea and where the bodies of his two wives are interred.

When I met the Queen in 1997, she extended her had to me and the feeling that came over me was a total shock.

It was a religious experience, as if I had attended Holy Communion or had been to a long service.

That's the God's truth!

Alex

Dear Alex,
Two questions:
a) may I request the publication data on the prayer-book you mentioned?
b) what's an EC heretic?
Incognitus

It's [sic] an "Orthodox in communion with Rome," aka an "Orthodox Catholic!"

Amado
(A Roman Catholic heretic!)