www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Farenheit 9/11

Many people seem to overlook the fact that pro-life is conception to grave. It is respect for the entirety of life, not just part of it to make political points with a certain faction of the party. The March for Life episode speaks for itself. Had this been really the priority and big issue for the President he would sometimes like us to believe, he would have been there.

Sparing one day, a couple of hours, not even that, a part of an hour marching and verbally supporting is not asking for much. I believe he could have easily swung this considering some of the other events i.e. fundraising he always seems to find time for a personal appearance, had this really been a personal crusade of his. This is very revealing indeed.

Sending men to die in a war which is neither just nor justified cannot be said to be embracing a true pro-life stance or one that is congruent with the teachings of the Church.

Witness the Holy Father's repeated reminders directly and personally to President Bush about the Vatican's strong opposition to the war on moral arguments. Most recently only several weeks ago upon the President's trip to Rome. I strongly and completely agree with Bishop John Michael Botean's courageous position on this war as well.

Neither major political party can be said to either be completely and truly pro-life. Both major political parties have aspects of their platforms that are directly opposed to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Both are supported by wealthy special interest groups that are also opposed to these same teachings.

I agree, Walnut, with your sentiments. For me, belonging to either major party would be embracing platform elements directly opposed to my faith. And I am not just strictly speaking about the pro-life issue. I became independent some time ago and have felt greatly relieved in conscience for doing it.

The senate (ie: two votes for Rhode Island and the same for California), and the President's legislative powers (over congress) are two of the three branches of American government which help to keep the population of smaller states from being dominated by the larger more populous ones, not the electoral college system.

You can also argue that the judicial system is yet another 'branch of government' which is meant to protect the rights of the minorities within all states, big or small.

Hritzko

The Church has spoken clearly. It is a sin to vote for a pro-abortion candidate. The Right to Life is the first and most basic right and must be protected. Voting for a pro-abortion candidate because he is for "social justice" or is "anti-war" or any other reason is a weak attempt to justify this sin because if one does not believe in the unborn's fundamental right to life and the duty to protect it what do subsequent rights mean? That some clergy suggest that it is permissable to vote for pro-abortion candidates is a scandal and as Christ said:"... it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believe in me, to be drowned by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea..."(Mathtew 18:6).

Fr. Deacon Lance

Abortion is the issue of our age and the one we will answer to on Judgement Day as to what we did to stop it.

41 million abortions since Roe v Wade
3,500 abortions a day, every day
1/3 of pregnancies

As per "Seamless Garment" Many popes, such as Innocent III, Leo X, Julius II, Alexander VI approved of capital punishment. Some Catholics look at the past through the eyes of the present. I look at the present through the eyes of the past.

From the Ascension to the Present, for 2,000+ years, the Church has consistantly condemned abortion

Minimum wage and prescription drugs are not on the same moral plane.

Reagan approved abortion as Governor of California, but was the first president to publically address the crisis. Nixon and Carter were silent, Ford a freemason. Bush41 was pro-abortion but changed to please his sponsor, Reagan.
We got caught sleeping in the 70s amidst liturgical chaos. Please support www.all.org [all.org] the Catholic Pro life Crusade and the 100% Pro-Life PAC.
If you live in one of the 15 out of 50 states where the election in November is uncertain, a vote for Bush may be the lesser of two evils.
The Constitution Party would end abortion on inauguaral day with no exceptions for rape or incest. A true pro-life Catholic position. It opposes imperialist wars to boot.

The weak statement of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops on giving the Body and Blood Of Our Lord and Savior as a sacrilege to Pro-Abortion faux Catholics was released on the Latin Feast of St. John Fisher.

St.John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester, was the ONLY Catholic bishop in all of England to refuse to acquiese to Henry VIII in his creation of new debating society in clerical garb claiming to be a church. God bless the Bishops of Colorado Springs and St Louis, lonely voices like St John Fisher.

Christos Anesti

Father Deacon, I agree that the Church has spoken clearly about anti-life candidates.

She has also spoken clearly about this war and the fact that in no way possible can it be considered just or justifiable in any way.

She has clearly spoken that the respect for life includes both infancy and adulthood.

With regard to the posts about lesser of evils, a "lesser of evils" still entails supporting an evil and represents a relativistic moral position.

Subdeacon Randolph,

Abortion and war are not equatable issues. Abortion is always evil. One is always excommunicated for it. On the otherhand, while the Holy Father has spoken against the war in Iraq he has not said Catholic soldiers are forbidden from or excommunicated for fighting in it. I would also note that those Christians most directly affected, the Chaldeans and Assyrians are quite supportive of the war. Unless a candidate agrees with all the teachings of the Church voters are always faced with a choice of lesser evils. Abortion is the greatest evil in or society, period. It must be opposed.

Fr. Deacon Lance

These recent posts have wandered off topic. The voting records and of Catholic politicians vis-a-vis abortion are certainly topics worthy of discussion, but do not belong in this thread which originally inquired about the documentary, Farenheit 9/11 .

Father Deacon, preventable murder in the case of an infant or an adult absolutely are equatable issues. One cannot pretend to be pro-life without taking the entirety of life into account. That is indeed the position of the Church.

Bishop John Michael has spoken to the issue about Catholic participation in the war, as have others with the support of Rome. And regarding the position of the Chaldean hierarchy, I will refer you to http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:97173579&refid=ink_g5s1&skeyword=&teaser=

I apologize for my overt wandering off topic and will not do so again.

This column in the NY Times [nytimes.com] makes my basic point, and perhaps in a way/from a point of view that Moe, Christian, etc. would be more ready to listen to.

-Peggy

Incognitus,

Because my question to you was off-topic in this thread, I have moved it over to the "moral voting" thread started by Deacon Lance. I am looking forward to your response there.

Thanks,
Anthony

It is true that the Senate was designed with this is mind. That does not make it *not* true that the elctoral college system serves a similar purpose.

The other reason for using the electoral college was to prevent against a hugely popular fruitcake from getting elected. Obviously, it has failed to perform this function many times.

As Catholics we are called to be more right wing than the Republicans on abortion and more left wing than the Democrats on foreign policy. With 70 Million Catholics in the US someone should start a Catholic Party.

Michael Moore's film is within the Jesuit/Maryknoll tradition of Peace and Justice. He takes many things that were one day stories that only NPR media junkies notice and strings them together quite powerfully. I will not vote for Bush or Kerry.

Shlomo Walnut40,

I agree with you a 100%, the only problem is that with our tradition of the Separation of Church and State, and the repression that Cathoics did suffer in the early part of American History, we are afraid that we will alienate our fellow citizens.

I am an active Republican, and I call tell you that when I try to introduce resolutions that talk to Catholic Social Justice issues, I have been called a "lefty." My reply, is no I am not a lefty, but a Christian trying to live according to the Gospels and his Church's teachings.

Further, before a "Catholic" party could come about, we need to change our election laws so that we get rid of "First Past the Post." That way voters who may not support us or the others would have options, and the candidate that was able to get a 50% + 1 vote would always emerge.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

I saw the movie last night. Apart from its being a little too gory for me, it was great fun, although in a sorry way. I suppose that films are a good medium for the left, as radio is for the right.

Non_nomen wrote:

When this comment was first posted, I was surprised; I had not heard this before. I surfed the net for commentary on the this and found nothing to support Non_nomen's claim. Having seen the movie, it is clear: the comment of Non_nomen is false.